Wildlife Buff Woes (From Telemetry Thread)


#1

Wasn’t it a hunter complaint that the first thing three monsters do is go for all the good buffs? Third should make our harder for a stage 1 monster to runcurrently for the buff without taking perminate damage. Our at least that’s how I’m inturperating it.

I am behind this forum so if I’m repeating someone else I apologize.


Telemetry and Game Balance
#2

That depends.
In pubs, you can kill a buff and race to stage 2, while it is still active, which is very unfair for the hunters and it is the source of the majority of complains when it comes to how easy the buffs are to get.

But in a match with a good monster against a good team, shaking the hunters off for long enough to evolve can take more than 5 minutes, so if you rush the damage buff you won’t get much out of it at stage 2. So instead, you want to pick a route that leads away from the buff you want, so that you can turn around and rush it once you get to stage 2.

So, what you need to do against a good monster is to deny as many buffs WHILE chasing it. Giving the albinos more health will make it harder for the hunters to do that,since you are forced to slow down.
For the monster it only require a couple of seconds more to kill and eat the buff.


#3

So I may be wrong in this assumption, please correct me if I am.

You want TRS to make it harder for the monster to get buffs but not make it harder for hunters? You want the hunters to be able to deny all buffs for the monster while taking their pick of them?

I’m pretty sure 4 hunters can down an albino in about the same time it takes a monster If not faster. With a larger health pool for albino’s i.e. tyrant, sloth - the monster either takes perminate damage by not having enough armor or has to eat more before engaging to not take damage. By increasingly the health pool of the albino’s

  1. the monster has to take extra time to armor up before taking it down in order to not take perminate damage

  2. Factor in how much extra armor you need in case you’re interrupted by hunters.

This will probably force most monsters to take about another minute to armor up before taking on the new and improved albino’s giving the hunters more time to get the buff themselves.

Personally I on average have to plan on losing about 3 bars of armor taking on a tyrant at stage 1. Now increase its hit points and I may be taking 4 bars of armor damage. This slight change makes a huge difference for a monster who’s only defence against perminate damage is their armor. That extra little bit of damage taken can easily be the difference between losing armor and health in a dome.

In a stage 1 domed as behemoth I usually plan on losing 2 bars of real health when I’m armored up. That extra bar off armor I’m losing to get the buff means I’m losing more health and the buff does less healing. No longer worth my time, because I’m now worse off for getting the buff than I would be with it. Potentially gaining a bar of armor being domed is far more appealing than potentially coming out even and in a dome. Now I have to kill 1 more creature increasing my threat of being found just after or during the fight with an albino.

Those extra two or three hits will probably take an extra 6 seconds the monster probably will not have, once again making going after the buff that much less desirable at stage 1.

Sloths are a push over for the monster making those albino’s off balance for monster vs hunter killing. But sloths are soooo annoying for a fleeing monster so it may balance out in the end. The rest will be about even.

On the other side the hunters take no time picking up a buff just run by and hit a button, no stopping necessary. The monster has to stop and graze.

This change will impact high level play even more for both sides. Now the stage 2 monster has to create more distance, taking more time, potentially getting caught by the hunters doing so to get the preferred buff. Once the dome is down and the monster needs to create substance and armor up potentially losing above said buff. Why? Because the hunters are now right around the corner from the buff, why not take it off the map?

As you said hunters will have to take an extra few seconds on denying the buff. Leaving things about even on time taken to kill albino’s.

You may see this an insignificant change in the monsters :eyes: but it really isn’t.


#4

All Monsters can kite wildlife to avoid damage.


#5

##Yes!

Yes. I do want it to be easier for the hunters to deny all the buffs. Here is the thing: buffs mostly favor the monster . Let’s start with the concept: The buff timer ticks down from the moment you pick up the buff. A stage 2 monster can eat any buff it want and then pick when and where he/she want to fight. But so can the hunter, because else it would not be fair, right? No. When you pick up a buff you have to hope you catch the monster within the next 5 minutes. So, let’s imagine the buffs were balanced for both team(which they are not, but more of that later) and we say the assault got a 100% damage boost(just pulled a number out of my bum, don’t question it) and the monster is like “shit, I better stay away”, well then he/she can just do that. Stay away until the timer run out.
“But the trapper can just catch the monster and force a fight”. Well, good luck with that. The only way you are going to dome a good monster is by tricking it or while it evolve.

Second, the effects: Let’s start with the worst one, the tyrant buff. Only favor the monster. No, I’m not going to care how many times it have saved anyone from constant splash damage they took while standing too close to the focused hunter. Second, the damage buff. The monster relie on burst damage while the hunters are DPS. A buffed rock throw is always going to hurt a lot more than an equally strong flamethrower, because of the pure damage taken in a split second, and a hunter with enough health to to take three abilities is suddently killed by a simple two ability combo like leap smash to charge. The damage perk help out the monster the most, and after that the assault and a couple exceptions like Slim, Cabot and Sunny. So, to quickly go trough it again, more damage favors the burst damage dealer much more than the DPS dealers. And the fact it’s equall for both hunters and monster is not fair. It should be also be signifcantly stronger for the hunters, since the assault and certain exceptions are the only ones that favor from it.

The third issue is that as explained, the buffs favor the monster so much, you have to go out of your way to deny them. You don’t kill them to benefit from them, you kill them so the monster don’t. Is that fair in a game mode called hunt? Well, when it’s supposed to be the monster you are hunting, and not wildlife?

A good fix would be to allow the hunters to vote if they want to play the game with buff on the same screen where you can vote for a new map.

Now, I’m not trying to offend you, but you seem to be the kind of player that don’t think too long over what they do, so I understad you don’t understand how possible buff can be so strong as I claim.
I don’t try to be mean, what I’m saying is that many monster players save strong buffs until late game, like the tyrant’s health regen for when they are properly hurt. Those are the players that get the maximum out of their buffs and they are the ones that show how strongly monster favored they are. And no, they are not special snow flakes, it’s the average monster we meat in pubs right now.

No, no! You miss understand. You are thinking about it like it’s equal for hunters and monsters.
The thing is, as a monster you don’t have to stop to kill every single buff, so you will only feel the extra time and damage when you coem across a buff you want. But for the hunter’s it’s not the same. They have to kill every single buff they come across. For every two seconds extra the monster have to stop and fight an abino, the hunters have to stop and fight ~3, which would be 6 seconds.

It is. I play monster alot. More than enought to know how good buffs are for them.


#6

I dunno about them favouring the monster, they really are great for hunters also, especially that damage increase when you get Sunny/Cabot together with Laz, Torvald and Crow.


#7

But it’s even better for the monster.


#8

Agree you said man. Great input. For monster the buffs favor them very much, even the simple buffs, like smell range and armor regen. CDR, Damage Increase and Damage Resistance, and HP Regen are the four big buffs that favor the monster.

Monsters can kill a buff and deny a buff to the hunters, especially during the first minute of the game. While hunters once they see a buff and kill it, can only hope that monster doesn’t come back for it or that a wildlife carnivore eats it to deny it to the monster.


#9

Did you forget the entire premise for your conversation?

The buffs are harder to get, why are you still complaining?

Not all buffs impact the game the same way. Choose the buffs you want to deny. If you want to waste your time killing every buff on the map all you’re doing is let the monster create distance to evolve, and eat more to evolve.

You can do the same thing, it’s not recommended but you do have this thing called a choice. If you choose not to engage the monster eats, if you do then that’s a decision you made. Don’t drop a dome on it, just harass the monster.

So you’re going to openly admit it does help the hunters but ignore it just because it derails your whole argument? How hunter of you.

Aren’t all the T4 hunters burst damage? You must not play very many good assaults, that damage bonus hurts. You want a another burst damage assault have one. With knock backs and stun locks your assault is half way useless with burst damage. Your sustained damage hunters on the other hand will keep firing while these happen. So in all reality if your not using a sustained damage assault your just asking to be dominated with or without a buff.

Like above you should pick and choose what to deny. Traversal cool down has far more impact when dealing with a Wraith than a Behemoth. Most Wraith’s take cool down reduction, and buffs don’t stack making this a virtually useless thing for the Wraith to even think about. No monster is going to be like “ooh I chose this perk when building my monster let me boost it a little and ignore all the other things that will help my kit.” If it does happen then your team is better off for the monster not thinking about things.

When denying buffs the hunters do get their pick of buffs. Not every hunter benefits the same way for every buff. Assault will benefit from every damage increase and resistance. Jump height, cool down reduction, poison the monster, slow the monster. None of these are useless to the hunters, but just like some buffs benefit different monsters they benefit different hunters. So yes denying buffs benefits the hunter, if you’re ignoring that fact than you need to talk to someone who doesn’t have the achievement for having 12 of the beta hunters elite. If you don’t know about this achievement if you get all T1, T2, and T3 elited you get a game achievement.

Sure, once all of the hacks and exploits are removed from the game. That would be viable. But right now with hunters using unlimited jet pack, unlimited stealth, stacking and having multiple shield drones, using radar hacks, invisible hunters, and everything else, never going to happen.

Once again I stayed within the original conversation. With the stage 1 monsters immediately running off and getting all of the good buffs. The main complaint of hunters.

As quoted earlier

How much easier does this buff make the medics job to keep everyone alive? You must have forgotten about that, you did say you were going to ignore any help the buffs give the hunters ^^^ see above. If you want to blind yourself to the help the buffs give the hunters and ADMIT IT, you’re obviously not doing your team any good. And you’re making my job easier to counter any and everything you say. All I have to do in the future is quote this and your whole argument goes in the crapper. Thanks for the easy rebuff :wink:

How much easier is it to force a monster off a downed body with damage bonus? A LOT of difference. I could go on all day but no point. You’ll just ignore anything that makes my point valid anyways.


#10

Nope. It was never about what you quoted there.

They are not much harder to kill. And I said:

And I still stand by it: In pubs. I don’t have that issue, because when I play with my team, the monster sure as heck is not going to get to stage 2 while having that buff, so he better enjoy it while he/she is stage 1, which they never do. I said it was the source of the majority of complains, because majorty of people play alone. Not mine.

Dude, do you even know what you are talking about? Because there are plenty of powerful buffs you get from high-health wildlife and you have to take down if you are against an average and up monster. No, you don’t have to kill the poision hound, but that’s about all you can ignore. Leaving buffs alive is sloppy by the hunters, and if the monster get to stage three and don’t bother picking up the buff you couldn’t be asked to kill, then for the love of all holy, don’t use that player as an example to show that “buffs are ok, guys!!1!”.

What? Ok, let me tell you something. When I play Goliath. When a decent player play Goliath. They don’t go to stage 3 unless they have taken health damage. They eat that damage buff you didn’t bother to kill, and then whipe the floor with you. And yes, you can deal damage to a monster without deploying the dome, but here is the hard truth, brother: So can the monster do to you.

Have you heard of balance? One buff. Two sides. When the monster get the buff, it heal permanent damage. When the hunters get it, it will heal up the tiny bit of damage you took when you stood a bit close to the trapper when he was flame sprayed. Balance Balance Balance

Torvald and Sunny are dealing more burst damage relatively to the other hunters.
Real burst damage from a hunter would be a weapon that dealt like three bars instantly, with a ~20 second reload. The damage buff is much better than nothing, but it’s no-where near as good for the hunters as it is for the monster, even tough the value is the same.

[quote=“Malidi_ko, post:5832, topic:588”]
Like above you should pick and choose what to deny. Traversal cool down has far more impact when dealing with a Wraith than a Behemoth.
[/quote] What! I just can’t comprehend… No! They are atleast equal! Dude!..

What? Yes, they don’t stack, but don’t you know buffs are stronger than their perk counter parts?!

The buffs will always be better than nothing, but that’s not the point! The point is that they are many, many times better for the monster! That’s why you have to deny them! When you see an albino sloth you should not think “Maaaan, I could really go for that damage buff right now”, you should think: “Holy shit! Better kill this one before the monster eat it!”

Wait, what? How did you just de-rail into talking about achievements? Are you saying I’m a newbie? What?

Listen dude, you don’t say you rush the health regen buff unhurt at stage 1, and then come here and say: “Buffs are balanced, guys!”. Well, except you did.
I’m tired of sugar coating it, so I’ll say it straight out: You have NO idea what you are talking about!

Because the example would only be valid if you are a bloody idiot! You shouldn’t be taking any splash damage! You should not have clumped up in the first place! The entire point of the example was to tell people that have no idea what they are doing to not defend the health regen buff!

How can you be so dense!


#11

Moved this out to it’s own area, would be great if you could continue the discussion without resorting to calling each other names though :smile:


#12

It was a minor slip and I am sorry. But I’m not sure if I can keep myself from going Norwegian on his ass.
We are more thick skinned when it comes to being honest up here and I’d love to lecture this guy!
But I will respect culture differences and forum rules and try to stay polite.

Just keep an eye on him.


#13

I don’t really get what the OP is saying with the first post. Are you saying the buffs are fine where they are right now?


#14

I think he is responding to a post by me complaining that increasing the health on albinos hurt the hunters the most. If I remember correctly.
So @niaccurshi kinda missed a post, but that post should probably be copied rather than moved to this thread to give context, since it war a reply to MacMan and actually relevant to the telemetry thread.


#15

Oh okay now I understand. Reading the first post in this just had me lost. But I am with you it does hurt the hunters making them harder to kill. Hunters are all ready forced to kill all the buffs along the way, just so the monsters can’t get them. Buffs are just controlled by the monster in a match.


#16

For me it’s not even about the fact that the monster has more buff control than the hunters. It’s that the buffs are way too strong. It turns the game into a buff hunt instead of a monster hunt. I really hope they add the option for matchmaking without wildlife buffs.


#17

I agree that it is higher in the monster favor as well.
Its not a choice its a lose lose for hunters
they can deny monster a buff but unless they camp that buff the monster can sneak back around and take the free meal.
if they do camp the buff the monster gets a free evolve. its a win win for the monster.

either they get a buff
-or-
they get a free evolve


if they have the buff it eliminates the hunter advantage at S1 and tips it to an even fight as if S2.
If the monster gets the free evolve well that eliminates the S1 hunter advantage as well.
there is no real way to eliminate the monster s3 advantage.


Then the monsters are practically force fed teh strategy of fighting by wildlife. Simple fact: wildlife jacks with hunters way more than monsters. If these elites now have more health amd movespeed a fight with them in the arena is going to be brutal.
you can say don’t dome the monster there but its not that easy.
the monster can engage you at that spot as you’re tracking.

the monster has way more control over where the fights happen.


#18

I can’t find the original post, but it can be edited in as a quote if anyone finds it.


#19

Ok, found it.
This was all in one post by me: