Why Slim's fire rate is not balanced


#1

It should be pretty obvious at this point that Slim excells at healing when facing a Behemoth or even Goliath but lacks it against Wraith, Gorgon and a Kraken flying high in the air.
This is due to the spread of his shotgun; the less pellets hit, the less healing he can do. Of course, to counteract this you can pace your shots, but by how much? After testing it with my programmable keyboard it turns out that instead of every 286 ms (full auto 210 rounds per minute) you need to slow down to 500 ms or more to get really accurate. Anything inbetween is just as inaccurate as 210 RPM.
(Btw, the green circle around the reticule represents that spread pretty decently)

##Spread at 30 meters shooting fully automatic every 286 ms (210 RPM)


##Spread at 30 meters shooting every 500 ms (120 RPM)

##Spread at 30 meters shooting every 522 ms (115 RPM)

From a pure damage perspective this is fair: The bigger target has more health and should recieve more damage, the smaller target has less health and recieve less damage, not to mention some weapons deal the same damage against every size.

  • 210 RPM
  • 448 damage per 2.286 seconds = 195.976 DPS (100%)
  • 448 damage per 2.286 seconds unload and 1.660 seconds reload = 113.533 DPS (100%)
  • 115 RPM
  • 448 damage per 4.174 seconds = 107.331 DPS (54.8%)
  • 448 damage per 4.174 seconds unload and 1.660 seconds reload = 76.791 DPS (67.6%)

So far so good. But the problem lies in his healing. Where Val’s, Rogue Val’s, Lazarus’, Caira’s and Emet’s ability to keep the team alive does not depend on the size and movement of the Monster, Slim’s healing does.

  • 210 RPM
  • 3 * 208 health per 2.286 seconds unload and 1.660 seconds reload + 0.17 delay for maximum efficency = 3 * 208 health / 4.116 seconds = 151.603 HPS (100%)
  • 115 RPM
  • 3 * 208 health per 4.174 seconds unload and 1.660 seconds reload = 3 * 208 health / 5.834 seconds = 106.959 HPS (70.6%)

This of course does not account for inaccurate aim, but it clearly shows a huge gap between shooting at a big target vs shooting at a small one.

TL;DR:
So once again, but this time with more detailed reasoning, I would like to suggest to @GentlemanSquirl @Insane_521 @LordDeath to take some time after TU09 to readjust Slim’s healing potential.

The minimal change that may even be enough already would be:

  • Maximum firerate decreased to 120 RPM (from 210)
  • Damage per pellet increased to 10 (from 7)

A nice side effect from a slower maximum fire rate would be, that tumbles (which render him unable to shoot for a while), would affect his healing less.


#2

Paced shots always felt lackluster to me. I would land the first hit rather accurately but then it went all over the place in subsequent shots. I now feel stupid for proclaiming myself a good Slim player while I should’ve done this test a long time ago. Apparently I was shooting too fast for the whole “slow shot accuracy” thing to work.

Not sure why it’s not dynamic. I feel kinda cheated at the moment tbh, because you trust patch changelogs to be reliable while in reality it’s not at all “dynamic”, it’s just either 99% accurate or all over the place. No middle ground.

On a somewhat unrelated note, whatever happened to the whole thing that’s been suggested several times before about giving Slim 1 pellet in the center that always goes 100% accurately where you aim for it to go, and only that pellet fills your Healing Burst?
Size of the Monster would have 0 impact on Slim’s healing output, only his damage output.


#3

Well, it actually works just like Abe, only Abe seems to have a slightly higher spread. From my testing it seems as if 1 shot would increase the spread of the next by X amount until the maximum is reached. Then its a .5 seconds delay between shots before the spread decreases again. About 520 ms after a shot it has the original accuracy again.

I myself was suprised by this and expecting a result like “After 350 ms the spread is tight enough so that you can heal against a Wraith pretty good.” But nope, you have to wait more than half a second. Anything between 115 and 120 RPM gets you better accuracy. Anything between 210 and 120 has the exact same spread.

Its still up here somewhere, but I think if I really want something to be changed, I better suggest a bunch of possible changes so that the Dev’s can pick their favorite. I just wanted to know a good fire rate value to start from for this suggestion and it turns out 120 is good. Still high shotgun spread but not 50% stronger than paced shots.
There is probably more elegant solutions like having the spread decrease faster, but decreasing fire rate and counter-increasing damage is most likely the easiest solution, as it should just need two quick XML changes.


#4

Huh…now that youve broken it down like that id have to agree with your suggestion. That IS a good idea.
I really hope the devs look into this possibility. Especially since its neiyher a nerf or a buff. Just a better balance.
It may lower his over all damage Potential, but itll increase his average healing potential across all fronts.

Officially 2nd’ed lolz


#5

The way I look at it, slim suffers from Wraith just like how Laz suffers from MG, or how Torvald can do heavy hits on Behemoth. Some hunters will be better with certain monsters while some monsters are better than that hunter.

Wraith is a wiggly monster so even if Slim’s LG is more accurate, you then get into the debacle that Slim can’t land shot on her, thus the reason for the spread -so you can land some of your shot without 100% accuracy.

Slim needs HB readjustment so he has poor self-heals while doing great team heals. Slims need to back off and start mitigating like Val and not tank damage. So even if this means speeding up his HB by a few seconds, then he should be fine on self-healing without relying on doing damage, allowing him to mitigate.


#6

To some extent, I can agree. But the current margin is just way too high. The numbers above are the highest possible numbers, but I think getting 67% of it is reasonable to assume.
So it would be 101 HPS against Behemoth vs 71 HPS against Wraith. If it was something like 78 vs 71, I would raise an eyebrow at best, but in general be fine with it.

Sure, a margin brings in some variation, but it shouldnt make a difference of almost 50%. And I am just going to assume, that you wouldnt defend it if Slim had 710 HPS against Behemoth and 35.5 against Wraith.


#7

You also gotta remember that Val has tranqs to help her mitigate away from the monster. Spore cloud is good but it doesnt slow the monster down while its hard focusing him down either making his slight tanking more viable.


#8

I understand the difference, but this is way out of balance and TRS would not do that especially now. I could see this gap at launch Slim, but not now.

She does, but there is a difference between Slim backing up and/or cornered while shooting to heal himself rather than Val tranq and dodge. Slim could very well do Val level of mitigation but instead of tranqing the monster, he shoots 1-2 rounds into the monster for a quicker HB. Not to mention he can switch to spore once he is climbing and fire it at the wall.

That’s why I want to decrease his self heals and HB cool down. He does quicker self healing when the monster isn’t targeting him but cannot tank the monster, meaning he can mitigate and self-heal and not rely on shooting the monster for self healing.


#9

Expected a salty anti-slim post when I entered thread, but was pleasantly surprised. +1


Anyways, while I generally have no issues using Slim, and still get manageable healing output with Wraith and Gorgon (though it’s admittedly tougher), it would be nice if his firing was reverted to static spread instead of reactive spread the way it is now. Was not fond of that change when it went live. This way, they could adjust accuracy to be consistent without worrying about it being so wildly different based on the Monster you’re fighting and being killed with fire rate differences.

I’ve run the test on my own and got similar results, but I didn’t have a programmable keyboard to test the timing difference, and I didn’t notice the stark difference between 350 and 500 ms, I assumed it worked like normal recoil does.

One thing I do take issue with is the lowering of Slim’s FR. Not something that would be fun. He’s supposed to be able to spam shots and bring the healing burst up quickly, otherwise his fully automatic gun will have been a wasted change.


#10

Agreed with Mcgee on this one. He’s fine with his fire rate, I agree the accuracy needs to be upped slightly and changed to static rather than dynamic.

That said, he’s supposed to do terribly against Wraith/Kraken/Gorgon since 2 of them have smaller hitboxes and another two of the three are oriented more toward mobility. There is also the stark rise in healing potential he can do against some monsters compared to others, and I agree this should be brought closer together, but the fire rate is not something that should be messed with any further.


#11

I don’t think his the rate of fire is a problem. It’s mostly how spread interacts with variably sized monsters, combined with the way his cooldown reduction works. We have been aware of Slim’s healing variance for a while now since we get complaints that Slim sucks all the time by many players while in competitive Slim is an immortal god regardless of the monster.

There are a few data changes that I can do that don’t change how he feels to play but shrinks his massive skill gap such as lowering his max spread, remove the accuracy penalty from movement/firing, lower the pellet count and re-tune his damage/cooldown per pellet and many others.

I plan on increasing his min spread since I don’t like that he can fire accurately at far ranges. (Essentially what the “dynamic” spread would allow you to do if there wasn’t a large delay before spread actually tightened) He is supposed to be a close range medic whose effectiveness falls off the farther away the target is.

If data changes don’t work, we have a code change that we can do some time down the line that would solve his problem entirely.


Balance Patch - Estimated 7/26
How do I deal with Slim?
#12

Just a quick question about this topic. Have you guys ever just considered resigning yourselves to having certain characters just have a large skill gap? Certain characters, like Slim in this case, nearly always seem to be a problem no matter how you adjust them.

Now this isn’t a knock on you guys. You have all been doing great at attempting to balance characters in ways to keep the skill ceiling high while lowering the floor (looking at you Hank). Is it possible that maybe certain characters will always have that gap based on just how they operate? Do you think there will ever be a point where it is basically seen as, “You shouldn’t really pick that character unless you really know what you are doing” and maybe not worry too much about the lower end of the Skill Spectrum?


#13

In the case of Slim, I would say we haven’t spent much time tuning the proper levers to fix Slim’s problems. Lowering his healing or changing how reload interacted with class abilities is only going to make it worse for most players. The only change that we did to lower the skill floor was changing the leech gun to be automatic.

For everything else, if there is a large enough skill gap that we have problems tuning a character and it’s possible to tighten it, we will. Our current design philosophy is to make sure everything is as accessible as possible and then balance for high level play.

With that said, there are certainly characters that we design that won’t be good in high level play or will be too difficult to be effective in low level play. That’s just the nature of making fun and unique characters. There is even a character we are working on now that I don’t see working well in low level but will excel with proper decision making and positioning in high level.

As a side note, Bucket UAV replacement is working out really well and I could see him being picked in all levels of play, including competitive.


#14

Whoa, so that’s a thing? Are you talking about Vanilla Bucket or a Variation?


#15

Vanilla, dude. All hail our new overlord, Bucket! :bucket_cute:


#16

Best change ever made to him! Not sure if you noticed but that was more of accessibility change to me. My fingers would ache having to spam R2 and R1 so thank you again for that!


#17

To quote the “Squirl”


#18

Aww that’s no fair, he only posted that like 7 minutes before I asked and I didn’t check the Dev Tracker because I was responding to you!

SHENANIGANS!!!


#19

Well, there was also this, but I didnt want to dig at the time.

Seems like Tim failed his mission.


#20

That’s what I thought he was, and not “supposed to suck against Wraith”.

Anyways, very excited for the changes you are planning.

If I knew you were going that far, I would have already suggested some fine tuning for this.
Next time I dont want to study, I am just going to try and optimize these values :smile: