Why does anyone still use Lazarus for Hunt mode?


#1

Recently it seems like more pug Hunt matches are including Lazarus for some bizarre reason.

I’m going to be straight and to the point. Any person who feels that Lazarus is not the absolutely worst medic choice for going into a Hunt mode map, is fatally naive to the flaws of the Lazarus in his current build when paired with the Hunt mode. But, I do not entirely blame the Lazarus fans for this naivety as the reason they are unaware of the problem is because a lot of the monster community has remained naive to it as well.

To anyone who is not already aware… The chink in the Lazarus Hunt build is actually the trapper. No, Laz fans I kid you not his flaw really is a completely different teammate. And, yes, I added some emphasis to hopefully make the remaining naive saps learn the sad truth. Hell, even some of my own TAW teammates were unaware of this flaw until I explained it to them.

A team without a trapper has a harder time finding the monster - a fatal flaw in Hunt mode, and absolutely cannot hold the monster in place since they won’t even have Val’s tranqs which are the only current alternative to trapper characters on monster lockdown - another fatal flaw for Hunt mode. If the trapper dies that nice shiny dome vanishes and will not come back when the Laz revives him. That means even if the Lazarus player and both of the other alive teammates are absolute pros at Lazarus revive tactics the team has still lost the dome fight option.

Even worse is if the trapper is eaten thanks to the monster taking the faster feeding perk. If such a situation occurs then the only advantage to a Laz on the team is gone, and the whole team is stuck for 2 minutes without even being able to find most good monsters.

In other words, it is ridiculously easy for a monster to get to stage 3 with full health and full armor against any Laz team since there won’t be any healing for the targetted trapper. A stage 3 fight against a monster with full armor and full health is not going to go well for a team with no heals.

So… there are two types of trappers out there. The ones who throw a dome early just to stop the monster from running away, and those who save their domes until the monster is already out of armor so as to prolong how much real damage is being done but risks never doing real damage due to a constant runner monster. In both cases the trapper needs to die when a Lazarus is around the only difference is when.

The quick dome trapper can be killed whenever you are ready to run as a monster, but go for it at least 5-10 seconds before you truly want to run or think your health will be effected just so you have time to actually kill it without taking real damage. The patient domer needs to be killed before the actual doming, but the instant that trapper dies you need to leave, escaping during that crucial time where the enemy hunter team transitions from being attackers to revivers / chasers. Even if the hunter team are experts there will be a short delay as they change modes, and at the very least that trapper is out for the few moments it takes the Laz to switch from being away from the fight to reach the body and rez.

Of course there are two supports which can shield a targetted hunter, Hank and Sunny. This adds a bit of extra kink in that you have to either a) find a way to force the trapper into a break in the line of shielding via terrain, or alternatively b) kill the trapper so fast there’s no time to shield, or the most popular option of c) kill the support first / instead. Personally I feel that C should not be the to-go-to option for a Laz team as the Dome will still be up keeping the monster trapped for the full duration.

Of course the devs could remove my entire argument against Lazarus by simply making the glove revive reset the hunter’s 4 skills to ready, but if they did that I could see hunter teams exploiting that by deliberately dying right after their long cooldown began and being resurrected for reusage. Because of this potential exploit I feel that the cooldowns will remain as they are, which in turn leaves this fatal flaw in the Lazarus team build.

RIP Hunt mode Lazarus. I’m sure the newer players or completionists will still use you once in a while. And at least you are still useful for Rescue.


#2

Too much text but I hope that your point is that Laz is not viable againts pro monsters which I agree, when I’m monster I get a sense of relief everytime I see Laz or Slim( better Laz though) in the hunters team, but devs won’t change anything for now since they are satisfied with his win/rate, maybe in another title update or never…


#3

Or your trapper player could like, dodge.

Laz takes some more thought and careful play, but that doesn’t make him entirely useless. Still generally a bad pick though as long as Caira’s in the lineup, ngl.


#4

I’ve tried for a long time to theorize what you could do to improve Laz, and in the end he’ll never be viable simply because his skills are only worthwhile when people are incapacitated or dead. On paper this looks great, but since Laz does no healing it is all too easy just to spread the damage around so you can incapacitate two or even three people at a time. Granted this makes it tougher for you to body camp, but then Laz has to reveal himself at some point where he’s about as good as dead.


#5

Why?

Because he’s fun.

And it’s a video game.

I’ll pick Laz if I damn well feel like it. It isn’t like you can get pubstomped. Tell Trapper to learn to dodge.


#6

If the monster focuses the trapper the dome is gone with a Laz since there’s no heals. Telling a trapper to learn to dodge seems like a simple solution and it works great for a while against new or bad monsters. But sooner or later the monster will always win against a focused target if there’s no incoming heals, and even worse is against a truly good experienced monster who recognizes when a target is using the wall jukes and attacks where the target will be juking instead of where he is.

Lazarus has just a single heal AoE burst to give the monster’s target with a very small radius and a very small healing value - and majority of the time the Laz is deliberately staying away from the fight which means the target won’t even get that. The target of a good monster’s focus is 100% chance of dying on a Laz team. Which as I stated before, completely removes the dome.

I repeat. Lazarus is the absolute worst choice of character for a Hunt mode. As any kind of hunter during Hunt mode I would far rather have a Bucket on my team than a Lazarus, and everyone knows the ridicule Bucket gets in that mode compared to Hank and Sunny or even Cabot.

If you want to play him for fun please think of your poor teammates and restrict him to other game modes or only use it when you’re soloing. -_-


#7

Give Laz some range to his Lazarus Device so he can at least compete with body camping. His greatest weakness beyond his inability to effectively heal is that he is predictable. Imagine if Caira had to point-blank use healing grenades or Val needed to aim the med gun.


#8

I only play with premades, so thankfully I don’t have to put up with people whining, but I’m going to play the characters that I want, for fun. And every time we win with a Laz/Bucket combo I will cackle madly with glee. Is it harder to win with a Laz or Bucket on the team? Yeah sure. But, winning wouldn’t be as fun if there were no challenge involved.


#9

My point zind is actually that the only reason it is even possible to win a Hunt mode with Lazarus on the team is because the monster you are facing isn’t using optimal anti-Lazarus tactics. If the monster did use them you would have to fight every single Hunt mode as a stage 3 relay against a full health / full armor monster without any healing available to you at all.

I actually ‘like’ bucket as a competitive support for every mode. When I made the comment about him I was pointing to all the people who said it was a bad choice, and trying to make the point that Bucket was at least viable no matter what tactics the monster employed.

Lazarus I actually like for non-Hunt modes. But he will be completely non-viable for Hunt the moment monsters wake up to the anti-Laz tactic of downing trappers.

The current go-to plan for dealing with Lazarus involves targetting him, but his cloak means that it can take a long time to down him by which time permanent monster health damage has often occured. If the monsters wake up and realize that hit and run tactics downing the trapper without taking any damage at all to make every game a stacked stage 3 relay fight is simply superior and will drastically reduce the hunter victory percentage when employed.


#10

Laz is fun and if you are good you can beat most Monsters. I almost always pick him if I get stuck with Medic (4th choice) because I am bad at healing but good at avoiding the Monster. The only time Laz is bad is when the player is bad or or the Monster is highly skilled which most aren’t.


#11

I play trapper a lot, and when I see a Laz I know I’m in for pain… As soon as that dome comes down, I’m running to stay alive. Occasionally, I get the odd medic that doesn’t pick his choice until the last few seconds, leaving me to pick my usual choice of Trapper + jetpack refill. That can only keep me alive so long… The support can only do so much for me (unless he chose to go cabot or bucket, in which case, I’m f’d in the A).

However, saying that…

@Grengras If I see a Laz (with or without a shielding support) I, as the trapper, pick health regen. Ofc, this won’t help me if I’m focused TOO heavily, but it can be enough if my trap placements are done well, support cloaks me as he should, and I make good use of the terrain/buildings and jetpack. There are times where I wish we had a Laz, because in the right hands, a Laz is very good against a tough monster (so long as the rest of the team is able to keep the monster occupied) so that we can go through repeated domes with minimal strikes to ourselves.

But yeah… Seeing a Laz does make me cry a little, because I know it’s either gonna be very good or very bad… And usually it’s very bad…


#12

Damn straight Rose, you tell em lol


#13

I rather enjoy Laz. Yes you should focus trapper, but then once he’s down, what do you do? If you want to know the counter to body camping? Stay the fuck out of the monster’s range and shoot him. Don’t go in trying to get the monster off by getting in close, it doesn’t work. Just punish that monster. He may get the strike, and against a good Laz, the trapper will get that strike, but not before losing 3-4 bars of health. Only go for the rez if the monster is not focused on the body. That is the biggest key to playing as Laz, know when the trade off for that strike is worth it and capitalize on that.
As for protecting the trapper, that now falls on the support and assault. Have support cloak a weak trapper and get a heal burst on him. While trapper is fleeing for his life, assault needs to be informed where to go to set the monster up for insane damage. Ever have a monster so focused on trapper that he climbs up into 3 mines? That’s what happens when Laz is on the team, the monster gets very deep tunnel vision and they mess up.


#14

You can win with Laz. He and the team just need to know how to play with him.


#15

Nailed it. This is why a Laz + Cabot + Parnell team, for example, is so powerful. A Monster can’t take that damage and come away with a win. It’s not possible. So either he runs away and no strike no foul but you’ve still chipped away some health damage and slowed him down or he manages to time out the corpse (45 seconds) and dies on the spot or takes too much damage to recover from.


#16

I pick Laz for hunt mode, but only if we’ve also got Hyde/Torvald, Hank, and Abe/Griffin in the team.

FACIAL HAIR FORCE, GO!


#17

I tell support to use his cloak for Trapper instead of me during Stage 1, since Monsters tend to ignore me just to try and escape faster. :stuck_out_tongue:

But yeah… if someone tells me to play someone else, I tell them to shove off and at least let someone play their pick and see them in action before they start jumping to conclusions. Usually ends with them either leaving or sticking around trying to snipe at me for anything I may do wrong as Laz or make things up like “I wouldn’t have gone down if you were Caira” (Well, you would also have a strike or two by now. That Monster is NAILING you with every ability bud. Try a dodge here and there!)

Gah… pubs.

And yet folks never seem to do it. In pub matches, I am ASTOUNDED to what hits people. I don’t expect a perfect dodge record, but if you take literally every rock to the face because you can’t be bothered to lay off the space key for like… five seconds then complain that you are down, I’ll be using that glove to conduct a massive /facepalm before I move in to pick you up (Not you personally, “those” pubs)

With Laz on the team, there needs to be an above-average amount of teamwork involved. I can easily say that even with Caira on the team, a Trapper with no Support helping him out won’t hold me at stage 1, either. Far too easy to rock Trapper, push Caira around until it’s off CD then finish Trapper (Many Cairas tend to freak out and start healing their boo-boos even with a teammate at <30% HP hehe)

I’m not saying you’re wrong, per se, just that certain strategies need to be altered by Lazarus’ mere presence, on both sides, to avoid or mitigate the issues of trickle-healing. Unfortunately, it’s a rather unstable road for both teams and an early advantage for other comps could mean a victory in the making far sooner, but that’s Lazarus for ya!

Be that as it may (True or no), like Midnight said, you (Noone, really) should be saying “That’s the worst pick, pick someone else!” before even seeing that person behind the wheel of that Hunter.

Just want to finish off with mention of quite a few games where picking anything BUT Laz was a death sentence for us. There are Monsters out there who hit hard then beat feet, but when it comes to prolonged combat vs someone they won’t (or rather, shouldn’t) see until it’s too late, they derp out, make mistakes, and Laz capitalizes on punishing mistakes.

Yes yes, player error, but the point stands. Everyone has a weak aspect in the game. That Tourney Goliath may be able to absolutely DESTROY Caira teams, but be god awful at dealing with Lazarus teams, because he may just be inexperienced in dealing with a team used to having a Lazarus and the different tactics needed to make him work.

I’m not saying ‘Laz>Caira’ because that’s generally not true. You want a Medic with carrying capacity for derpy pubs, Caira is a solid pick. As with just about every hunter in the game, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, as we all do in our gameplay tactics. Laz just may be the ideal pick against certain people, is all! :smiley:

True, though that can be said for any Medic, really. Caira on the team? Time to back up that 3/3 Rock with another 3/3 ability once I hit Stage 2. Val on the team? Grab a 2 point and a 1 point and spread some love between focusing. That a Slim? All of the knockbacks!

When Laz is on the team, and I’m Trapper, I dome and gtfo. Too many times I see Trappers start engaging the Monster after chucking the dome and that’s a no-no with Laz around. Get away and get ready to kite if Support isn’t on you with the shield. Maybe it’s from playing my fair share of Laz, but kiting isn’t all too difficult with a little favorable terrain. You are correct though in that Domes are finicky for Stage 1. CAN you kite the Monster? CAN Support actually do so for you? CAN Laz land some clutch bursts? (Well, not since the Reload Speed bug but you get the idea!)

I mean… there are too many variables in any game to say beyond a reasonable doubt that Laz is an unviable pick. I could agree that teams with him are more punished for their mistakes, but so is the Monster. Laz is the Unstable Wild Card, in that regard, and many don’t like having to change their tactics to accommodate the support needed to make him shine.

Again, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but merely saying that he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be, but only if the team is WILLING to work with him! :wink:

This! All of my 'This’s!

Ugh I can’t stand the folks who go down to Incap and immediately start spamming in mic or chat;

“Get me up Medic! Medic! Pick me up! Omg Medic wtf you doing?!” while the Monster is sitting on his face…

CHILL! Let me work! I will get you up! If I don’t, you can bet the Monster is at least leaving the area wishing he did so earlier b/c that one strike wasn’t worth it!

Markov/Cabot for life! Our Cabbage LIVED for amping those mines!


#18

Works better with a Parnell or Torvald, or Hyde. Markov’s mines aren’t good enough to use now.


#19

That… that hurt, Midnight :<

But you do have a point, since Torvald hit the scene, it’s pretty easy to run the amp when his less-than-subtle ‘ChookaChookaChooka’ goes off, and Parnell has always been a good pick!

I just like Markov’s versatility! A good all-rounder for Assaults I can then tweak depending on how decent the Monster is (Or not, cause Markov is awesome!). Same reason I normally start with Crow as Trapper, then pick someone else after based on what the Monster struggled with the most in his kit :smiley:


#20

Not true, stage 1 wraith got dropped to 1 bar of health. Somehow managed to make it to stage 3 and win lol