Chances are, most of the people Slim knew were Basilisk soldiers. His friends signed up with him, I don’t know if he had any siblings but if he did, they probably signed up. I’m assuming his Parents signed up in a prior basilisk war.
My understanding is the slaughter was restricted to Basilisk soldiers. Since most of the populace were basilisk soldiers, it’s still a massive atrocity, but there are probably citizens of the basilisk nebula who were there during the rebellions.
Yes, Torture=Bad. And I’m not okay with torturing humans as an interrogation method
This is pretty political and it’s my opinion, but I’m okay with animal testing to save lives, and I’d be okay with experimenting on an alien species that threatens human lives. It’s a double standard to be sure
The Monsters were never intending to use diplomacy, and chances are it was never an option to begin with. Best case scenario, they were coming to destroy the patterson tech and just leave, stranding the colonists without power, essentially killing them. It’s quite clear now, that they will destroy and ravage the planets humans are settling on.
The Ajax monster has been implied (Or at least that’s my interpretation of the hints) to be a unique monster of immense size and strength, not a democratic ambassador.
The Monsters are fine with leaving people alive while they prioritize the patterson tech. Given that the monsters don’t move on until they destroy ALL the patterson tech, even if settlers survive, they’re trapped on a dead burning planet.
The monsters are driving many unique species completely extinct when they cleanse a planet. They’d completely kill all the species on these planets, if humans hadn’t been shipping them offworld since they arrived.
“Massacre everyone” isn’t a legitimate tactic from a moral perspective, even if they have a just cause.
In fact, their ruthlessness may come back to bite them later as they make enemies.
As stated, I heavily doubt that Patterson tech is the only form of generator used: seems extremely expensive.
Regardless, the average colonist, particularly those with children, may well prefer to flee and see to other needs later than to try to fight a Monster.
More would have escaped were they simply left alone.
[quote=“KomodoLover, post:80, topic:82500”]
They struck bohrium.[/quote]
I linked text there, describing what happened after Evacuation, in that case in the scenario that the Fusion Plant was destroyed and that the Evacuation Ship did not escape.
A bit off topic, thinking about it the Monsters are rather tactless in their quest to destroy Patterson tech attacking fringe world colonies first, which must be tiny in both their usage of it and strategic threat relative to other worlds.
Every defense of the Monster falls back on this speculation!
And what an improbable scenario: that Monsters who in game always ruthlessly kill in the end, if they live, destroyed the relays, left the humans alone, and that the humans somehow had absolutely no way to survive otherwise.
As a minor point of evidence beyond this improbability, Crow managed to and planned to survive on Shear without extensive infrastructure.
I find this desire to jump to wild speculation in defense of the Monsters disturbing.
Given that the Basilisk Nebulae was fighting a massively superior force, it actually might make some sort of sense to make most of your populace soldiers. It’s not great planning, but it makes sense if your desperate.
Given that several species of animal demonstrate problem solving, behaviors with no clear purpose aside from entertainment, familial relations and distinct personalities, that’s a gross oversimplification.
Given that evacuation shows a shear that looks like Mustafar, not for very long.
So you’re saying you’d rather the lore be different than it is. That’s all good and well, but I’m just telling you what the story actually is.
Yep, pure speculation. Like the title of this thread “What if the mosnters aren’t the bad guys?”. I only said it’s possible, not likely.
And they could have easily sent multiple waves. We know there are huge banks of tissue samples of them on the Akhenaten. We don’t know where those came from. Once again though (obviously since I have to keep saying this for some reason) this is speculation.
They actually say something almost exactly the opposite. Here’s a conversation between Maggie and Markov from the game:
Maggie: Hank told me about what happened on Sterling colony.
Markov: Is not a secret. Many people know.
Maggie: You ever think about starting another colony?
Markov: No. No I like this better.
Maggie: We’re gonna come out of this with a lot of money though. You know, if we survive.
Markov: True. Wait, you? Are you thinking about founding a colony?
Maggie: Um, I dunno. It’s been a long time since I thought about the future.
Maggie: But… it’d be nice to do something besides run and fight for a living.
Markov: It IS nice. It is a good life, Maggie, if the corporations do not take it from you.
Markov: If you do this, do not strike bohrium. That is Markov’s advice.
Maggie: Good advice.
This is semi-true, but as you can see from the previous conversation, not all of them prefer this life. Markov wouldn’t be a colonist again because he knows how evil the corporations are.
All of the corporations may not be totally evil, but as a whole they’re pretty damn evil. Being a colonist with the prospects of your children being wealthy does not mean that colonists necessarily enjoy the hardship of the lives they are currently living. They just want a better future.
We really have no idea what the relays are doing to their dimension. We know it’s something unpleasant, but that it. I’m not trying to excuse their obviously unethical actions, but I am saying they may have very good reasons to attack the relays that we don’t know about.
Perhaps they’re afraid that those people would reactivate the plant given the opportunity? They definitely do hate humans, so perhaps they’re doing this out of spite. This is good evidence to support your claim that the monsters are evil, but it’s ultimately inconclusive since it’s plausible that the monsters had ulterior motives in attacking the survivors.
These are colonists on the very edge of civilization. It seems very likely to me that they regularly encounter and kill things much larger than a stage 1 monster on shear on almost daily basis (as you can see from the collections of Armadon, Sloth, and Nomad skulls around their dwellings). These are present on most maps, so they clearly have powerful weapons and know how to use them. To these men and women a stage 1 monster is actually smaller than a Crowbill Sloth. I guarantee they would at least try to stop it from destroying their livelihoods (obviously they almost always fail).
Actually you haven’t cited anything directly. Let me show you how:
This quote proves what you were trying to say earlier about Hub not killing everyone in the Basilisk Nebulae. They only mostly committed genocide and horrifying unjustifiable war crimes against the prisoners of war that were Basilsk Soldiers themselves. I hadn’t read this in a long time time, and if you had linked it I would have realized you were right that they didn’t kill everyone sooner. So I give you this: Hub is not quite evil in the way I described. They are still monstrously evil for killing PoWs and committing genocide, but not on the grand scale I had thought. Obviously if Slim had a family they did still kill everyone in that family though (perhaps by accident in bombings against a civilian populace or some such) since he says everyone he knows was killed.
No, I’m looking at some of the larger pieces of background we are given: how the Monsters ultimately did not leave survivors beyond the one on Factor.
Speculation that is highly, highly unlikely based on the evidence we see.
There is never a point where diplomacy can morally be completely rejected as a possibility in favor of massacre when we are talking about bystanders and uninvolved parties.
In all probability the Monsters have been slaughtering and invading for awhile and being beaten back and killed for awhile: we have no reason to believe, based on any existing evidence, that they ever did otherwise.
And from Kala it seems apparent that they had Goliath, Kraken, and Wraith samples without an indicator that they had others, based on how her abilities are said to be tied to those three.
Sounds like the corps are willing to invade if the colony strikes one of the most valuable minerals around.
Neither she or anyone else would consider founding a colony if such a thing was the norm.
Honestly from Markov’s lines I’d guess he just likes fighting and being a hero.
Not to say the corps are saints, only that they aren’t hilariously evil like you posit.
So one colony being by some corp seized means they are all totally evil to you?
Hank and Markov both spoke to Val that they preferred the colonist life over the Hub life of less upward mobility.
Honestly I think the governments and corporations in Evolve are purposefully morally grey much of the time.
I grant that the Relays may be, and from hints probably are, doing something bad and that the Monsters may be justified in destroying them.
But as you say this does not justify their other unethical actions.
By that logic they would exterminate any intelligent race capable of Patterson tech, again with at best pathetic attempts at diplomacy.
The kind of massacre they are depicted as implementing earns a solid “proven evil until proven otherwise” from me.
And for what they do to not be evil would require a very convoluted conspiracy where every killed colonist was a collaborator in something deserving death.
I’m pretty sure word spread quickly that the Monsters were serious business, and in any case after a certain point it would be clear that fighting them is a death sentence for most.
I haven’t quoted, but I have cited where my information comes from.
It would take awhile to track down the exact conversations I refer to in order to quote them accurately, I was hoping they were simply common knowledge.
You are taking a very literal interpretation of “everyone” from Slim, where elsewhere he says all his friends are dead.
Seems more like typical horrific war trauma than a total massacre.
I won’t argue that Hub isn’t evil in doing that: I don’t think any of the big factions seen are ones I’d really root for beyond humanity in general.
The Hunters are obviously heroes, but they are a tiny group of brave crazy people, not a real faction.
As a last thought, Hub seems to be if anything the only non-corp government in the story bigger than a colony, aside possibly the Hegemony which was only briefly mentioned in the Basilisk Wars and which we have very little information on.
Let’s go way back. I said the ruling bodies of humanity are evil. You finally agree that Hub is pretty evil:
That’s great. We’re getting there. Now for this part:
When did I say they are hilariously evil? I stand by saying they are extremely evil.
Moving on, the characters say a lot of things that directly contradict you. You even seem to accept this now, and are just assuming that the characters are flawed or incorrect in specific ways so that your version of the story makes more sense. I suppose that’s OK, I just wanted you to see how your memories of those conversations do not line up with reality. I think I’ve done that for the most part. You certainly haven’t provided one single conversation to support your claims. All of the ones you’ve mentioned I’ve provided in full AND they actually hurt your argument.
Caira said this and she’s one of the smartest characters in the game. If you think she’s wrong about this that’s your interpretation of the story. I think she’s correct. And once again, you’re ignoring the fact that they probably didn’t kill everyone on Factor directly. But sure, maybe they did. We don’t know. Pointless to discuss.
I don’t think you’re thinking this through. What are the Patterson drives doing to monsters home dimension in Cherenkov space? What if they are killing the monsters in the masses or destroying their worlds? I don’t know what they’re doing either though.
Actually we do. Matt has never been very specific about the exact timeline of Factor’s destruction, but we know Factor fell in 2378. We also know that Ebonstar was transporting a captive monster in January of 2378. Maybe they captured this monster on Factor? It’s very likely that they did not though, since Ebonstar probably didn’t have time to respond with a team prepared to capture a monster before the planet fell. Here’s the conversation between Slim and Torvald to verify that:
Slim: Ok, round two. Continue. Light Cruiser AJAX, you said.
Torvald: Yes. Transporting a monster.
Slim: Wait, one of these monsters?
Slim: When… how long ago was this?
Torvald: Thirteen months ago.
Slim: Before the outbreak here?
Slim: EbonStar had a captive monster before the monsters even showed up here?
Slim: Mother. Fucker.
Yep! And if you don’t agree that this makes the corps evil I don’t know what to say to you. They kill people they are supposedly partnered with and that can barely fight back to steal their earnings. They are literally liars, murderers, and thieves.
It sounds like you aren’t reading my words or the conversations directly. The characters in the game say that the corporations do this and they are almost all aware of it. This is not an uncommon practice. It’s not just Ebonstar.
How do you know their attempts at diplomacy were pathetic? We know almost nothing about the Corporations’ or Hub’s interaction with the monsters prior to Shear.
Maybe the monsters are morally evil, but since we have no idea what happened between the corps/hub and the monsters before Shear AND we also have absolutely no idea how they are being affected (potentially even mentally) by the Minkowski waves produced by the Patterson Drives I’m not willing to assume they’re evil yet, but I certainly won’t argue that they might be evil. Very plausible.
Yep, word would spread quickly… but where do we find all of the bodies? Think about it. Almost every single human body in Evolve is found near the relays. I would estimate off-hand that at least 80% of all human corpses in the game are within 60 meters of a relay. These people died defending their power source or they were attacked while working very closely to it.
I’m putting in the time to track down conversations that are relevant to this debate. You are not. I even have to provide evidence for your side of the debate when you’re correct. Going to bed for the evening, but if I don’t continue the debate you’ll know why.
Oh, really? May I ask what time-warp in space brought them from their own home-world to protect a different planet? And could you please drop me in on why the Monsters would logically defend Shear when not being native to it?
Perhaps the Monsters are trying to get back to their homeworld by creating another timewarp in space with all of the Patterson tech? I do not believe, like DerJackal said, that the Monsters were there to defend Shear.
Unless you have some speculation on why they would be there to do so?
Thankyou for showing our friend CptBoomBoom that the Monsters are not the native forest friends defending the planet. Good God… That’s what me and DerJackal were trying to say this whole time, and he/she remained stubborn and tried to prove us wrong, and had no valid evidence supporting their claim.
Again, thankyou… Jesus, I don’t usually have to get so riled up for something so small.