Turtle Rock. Your promise


#1

First thing - i want to apologize for mistakes i could possible done in this text, because i am from Urkaine and i learned english only from games and movies, and my grammar knowledge is very simple, but i hope that you will understand me.

Here is the page where you made your promise. You said “US=YOU”, that you will always listen and respond to the community. That is all i am asking: a simple resond to a question, that i will ask in the end of this text. I am NOT asking to change your mind, to do something, or anything else, all i want from you - is to speak with us and tell us your opinion about this, because we really want to hear it. I really want to hear it. So, all i ask from you is:

RESPOND
…openly and honestly. No bullshit.

I will start by saying that Left4Dead 2 was the only multiplayer action game that i have bought in steam for many years (i also have a Rust, that was a gift, and Contagion, that i recently bought on sail for few dollars, because it was woth it). And i bought it just as soon as it was released. Why? Because i liked how Turtle Rock is approaching to game design and marketing. First they made an awesome game, support it by fixing any ballance issue (even a tiniest ones), they are always aware of any problems that gamers encounter and quicly fix it. Second - they was releasing new maps, and even did remake of l4d 1 maps (and a good one, where all maps adapted for new type of monsters), and all of that - for free! So, actually, first they created game, second - made it twice more awesome and replayable just for the people to enjoy it.

After that i decided: if they will ever again create a multiplayer game - i will buy it, because i trust this people more, then any other developer of the multiplayer fps game i ever known. Imagine how happy i was to know about development of Evolve, and even more - that i will be able to play this game solo against teams of people (i searched game that i can play without team for so long time…)! All 2014 i was saving the money to finaly buy it, but release date moved, and i waited, also tried the big alpha, found out that game is awesome, made few suggestions on steam forums and here.

But looking at pre-odret options for this game was left me in frustration. After bying the game i can buy - 1) new team of hunters, 2) Even more hunters, and more monters (that is what i need more, because i gonna play mostly mosters). So, you offering to have almost twice more content for additional money? And even more - you split game apart even before release, and selling parts that are cut off as a “dlc”? That would be totaly expected from someone with a horrible money-grabbing reputation like Electronic Arts\Ubisoft, but you - you was the last people on the earth from whom would i expect to do things like this.

So, here is my simple question: WHY?
All i need to know - what is changed, what made you do this kind of a change in your policy? From a studo that creating free dlc when their game is long time released you became studio who selling dlc even before game is released. Is the reason that you just want to make more money and no matter how, or there is more complicated reasons that i cannot imagine? Maybe your team is in trouble, or you need that to help someone you know? I don’t know the answer, only you do. Please, can you share with us your thougts about this?

p.s Maybe you thinking right now “what a greedy person, complaining about few extra dollars that we need from him to pay for what he wants to buy”?
Here, in Ukraine, price on dollar is always increasing during last year because of our war. It raised from 8uah to 16uah, that have lead to increased prices on eveything, almost in twice. But our paychecks is not increased at all - for example, i am disabled person and cannot work here, so all my month income is 900uah social payment to disabled people. With current exchange rate it is 58$, per month. But i need to pay the rent, buy some food for me, and my cats a dogs (all picked from streets, so they are more like my friends, then pets), and pay for the internet. That leaving me with only few dollards left, so i don’t even thing about things like concerts, girls, travels, and other ways of having fun that requiring money. The only way for me to have fun (except playing with my cats) is to read books, watch movies and play games. This is why i spend money only on most awesome games, that i would play for years - because i will not have chance to buy another game simply because i will need to spend monts, if not years to collect money to buy some. That is why i am so bothered about situation when i need to pay almost like for another game to unlock full content of this game (and maybe even more when more content is released). Yes, i can always don’t pay and play basic version of the game, but i want this game just to play monsters… all of them…


How to Try New Hunters Free
#2

First, TRS didn’t develop Left 4 Dead 2.
Second, they don’t cut the content off, they develop it after the game is finished to keep people interested in the game.
Third, I believe you will be able to buy monsters separately without overpaying for unneed stuff of Deluxe or Monster Race editions.


#3

Fact is; 2K is the publisher and sets pricing options and decides how to sell the game.

TRS might get input but 2K gets the final word. Valve is more generous with DLC for its games due to them having Steam income.


#4

All the maps they are making in the future are gonna be free DLC, I don’t know if theres gonna be any other free stuff but that’s been confirmed


#5

You saying that “includes 4 new hunters” from hunting season pass, “two more hunters” from monster pack and Behemoth are the content that will be developed after game will be finished? I was thinking that only fifth monster are not made yet.
Anyway, i want to hear what developers thinking about it. This is the only thing i came here for.


#6

At the end of the day if you’re upset speak with your wallet, don’t whine on their boards and try to grandstand about some greater point. Having played both Alphas they made me a full believer and I would have gladly paid my $60 on the original release date to have it then.

What they’re releasing is a very full and diverse game. As for beyond that they’re going to continue to expand and people will have an option to pay or not to play as those characters but at the same time people who don’t won’t be barred from playing with people who do. A pretty damned good deal. It isn’t like Battlefield or others where you don’t have the new map pack so you’re out of luck, they’ve repeatedly made it clear that new maps will be free, it is just new Hunters and Monsters people would buy.

All things considered that’s a pretty damned good deal and a policy that I consider to be the right one. Since this isn’t a Pay to Win scenario (it is a team-based game built on balance of benefit to deficiency) having people with new content mixed with people who only have the original isn’t unfair, in fact for the non-payers it is pretty sweet since the only thing you miss out on is actually playing as one of the new characters, though it appears you could even purchase those ala carte. Without having it come out to already start with the waterworks? That’s pretty sad/


#7

One thing that sucks about business is contracts. TRS NEEDED 2k to get this game done after what happened to THQ. Some contracts are very restrictive. You are asking for honesty and a no bullshit amswer from a company that probably signed a contract forcing them to keep quiet. The people in charge of TRS could be completely against the pricing of the DLC and they would not be allowed to say a word about it. The chances of you hearing a response on this topic is almost non existent. Sorry, man.


#8

You see, usually a game is sort of “finished” a few weeks (or even a couple of months) before the release date in terms of adding new content. The remaining time is spent on testing and optimization done by programmers. While they are busy with that, the artists and other people can create concepts of things to come, but all that stuff will be released months after the game is released, so it’s not really “cutting off”. I think the new hunters and the fith monster are on early stages of development/concept creating and the fourth monsters is partially done.


#9

Calling it a good deal is a stretch. A monster costing 15$ makes some sense to me but 30 bucks for 4 characters is nuts. I am going to buy the 80 dollar version that gives me the 4th set for free and heck I may even buy the 5th set too but calling it a pretty good deal is being a bit too positive I think. One reason I find it to be so crazy is that in game 1 monster = 4 hunters. If I bought this game a week after launch and wanted to get everything that goes with it. All the DLC that has been announced in some way. It would cost 150$. Really not a good deal at all. That being said people can charge what they want and people can buy what they want and it don’r bother me none.


#10

Hopefully you’ll be in a situation down the line where 2K/TRS decide to do a sale on DLC through steam, or whatever, and you can get a better price then. Sorry to hear about the situation with your exchange rates in Ukraine, it sounds pretty nasty :frowning:


#11

And i also don’t understand this. Why they needed 2k at all to make this game done? They have such a great cooperation with Valve, who is also very generous studio, why they didn’t ask Valve to be the publisher?


#12

Didn’t TRS’s previous publisher go under (THQ was it?) and so the rights/licenses were auctioned off. TRS were basically in a lottery as to who published their game, they say they got lucky by being partnered with 2K.


#13

TRS has kept their promise. I agree when you said that they were the first developer you’ve trusted in a long time, and I feel the same way. Allow me to address your concerns:

They confirmed that you can buy the 4th, 5th and 6th Hunter teams, as well as the 4th and 5th monsters. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN MADE. What the company is doing is essentially this: They have created a game with 3 monsters and 3 hunter teams. All that is done. Finished, packaged, in the game. Everything else- EVERYTHING- all that you mentioned in your post, all that they offer as DLC, is NOT FINISHED. As a matter of fact, the only thing from your list that is even being worked on right now is the 4th monster, Behemoth, and he is not even close to being done. The 4th hunters are still an IDEA- I doubt that they have more than some concept art to show for them. As for the 5th Monster, and the 5th and 6th teams? They probably don’t even know what they are going to make for those- all they know is that they will make them.

So they haven’t "“split the game apart before release” nor have they any plans to sell what should’ve been in the game as DLC. So trust me when I say this:

Turtle Rock Studios has not changed. They haven’t done anything wrong- They have done their utmost to provide us with the game we want. They have been fair. They have listened. Everything that was finished was put into the base game- they probably tried to add Behemoth, but couldn’t finish him in time. You were right- these guys were worthy of our trust.

And they still are.


#14

Everyone can still play together. So if you have tier 5 monster, but I just have the standard game, we can still play together and thus my game is enriched by an additional monster to fight against.

What everyone needs to keep in mind is that (as far as I am aware), the game is done. It has been sent off, and people are starting to make physical copies. If people complain about stuff in the beta, they might be able to fix it in a day 1 update, but apart from that, they’re done with the base game.

So at the moment, they will be developing extra modes, maps and yes, working on the new DLC stuff, as the game is now out of their hands. So nothing is “cut off”. They are paying people to stay on longer so that they can continue to develop the game, and make small tweaks if, after a couple of months, everyone thinks that wraith is OP or whatever.

They’ve always said they want to develop the game, and here is them doing that. Bear in mind that we probably won’t even get our hands on this extra stuff till around April.


#15

Basically 100% of your problem is with 2K. When THQ, their old publisher went bust the IP and development contract was put up for sale. TRS have no choice in this, they are under contract to make the game. 2K get to make all the decisions in terms of price etc.

From what I can tell TRS have stood firm on protecting the community from being split and not being ripped off by having to buy stuff they didn’t want.

I think TRS do the right thing, 2K are a publisher and lots of people have varying opinions on their practices.


#16

Other forum members have already taken up the mantle for your concerns but I will say this, I hope you continue to have faith in TRS. They are keeping nothing from the community and are gamers making this game for gamers. However, the DLC pricing and such are determined by 2K and the business world. It’s just the politics side of things. And yes, sadly, you probably will not get a direct answer from the devs due to their contracts other than to say that this game is already a finished product…everything they are working on right now is future-planned DLC stuff. They didn’t hold anything back, just planning for keeping the game fresh and alive for the future.


#17

Well, then i really hope that next time they will not even think about working with such a greedy publishers, and will renew their work with Valve (that would be the best option), or just use Kickstarter (since they have so many people who know who they are and what they can do - founding any kind of project will be easy).
Still kinda sad that they messed with those people, who making them even step over their promises, but i understand how the world of buisness works, and how it kill everything good, that was left in this world. I have hope that in the future all the developers around the wolrd will quit working with people like 2k, and turn to services like kickstarter, leaving term “publisher” forgotten.
Well then, since dev’s will not respond… Thanks for all who tried to explain the situation to me. Have a good day)


#18

I wouldn’t even like to hazard a guess as to how much Evolve cost to make, but considering it’s been in development for over four years it’s way out of the league of a Kickstarter (Star Citizen aside, and that’s had lots of advertising deals and such to supplement costs). Games cost tens of millions to make, Kickstarter’s are lucky if they can scrape in $1M.


#19

Thanks for the feedback. We appreciate hearing from you guys, as always.

Let me clear a few things up for you first…

Regarding DLC:
A lot of folks seem to be under the impression that we’ve got all this content done and we shave off a hunk to sell separately. That just isn’t the case. When Evolve hits the shelves, none of the DLC will be done. Behemoth won’t be done. None of the planned DLC hunters or monsters will be done. The only exception to this might be some skins that were working on now while we wait for all the final stages of packaging, manufacturing etc. to finish.

If we thought we could have finished all those monsters and hunters for ship we would have put them in the box. (Keep in mind, we pretty much have to have the game done about 2-3 months before it’s available to you guys…we can keep fixing bugs and such, but content is locked.) The bundles that include 4th and 5th monsters, hunters, etc., just mean that when they are done and we put 'em out, you get 'em.

Hunters and monsters are a pretty big undertaking, they cost a lot of money and time to make. We’re hoping that once people see how much new hunters and monsters bring to the game that they’ll feel like they got their money’s worth.

As we got closer to finishing Evolve we ended up with designs for a bunch of monster and hunters that we just didn’t have the time and money to make. Instead of throw them all out, why not put together a budget to make them as DLC? Means more content for the people who love the game and want more. It also means all those ideas get to see the light of day. Oh yeah, and it means more work for TRS and we can keep paying our bills and making cool stuff! :wink:

That’s all well and good…but our number one rule for DLC is never split the community. Never.
So we worked it out so that any DLC maps are free, any new game modes are free. Then, recognizing that not everyone wants to buy DLC, we made sure that even if you didn’t purchase any of the paid content, you could still play with people who did! So if I buy a new monster or hunter, and you don’t, we can still play together. You may not want to buy it, but your original purchase of the game will be enhanced by it anyway because you can still get into games with people who wanted to buy them. Hell, you can even set the DLC characters and monsters up as opponents in solo games.

Boom! Your game experience is enhanced, no purchase necessary. Obviously, we hope you like the DLC enough to buy it, but no hard feelings if not. We’re still happy that you bought Evolve!

And NO, we won’t be purposely making DLC hunters and monster overpowered to make people feel like they HAVE to buy them to stay competitive. We plan to keep things as balanced as possible for as long as people are playing the game.

What has changed about Turtle Rock from the old CS L4D days?

Well, we’ve had to leave the nice safe coral reef that was Valve and swim out into shark infested waters. (Pardon the analogy.) Working with Valve was a truly unique experience, not perfect, but definitely had its advantages in that they work at their own speed and largely on their own terms. They can do that because they have Steam and are more or less a privately owned company. (No stock market and all that goes with it.) Steam is so successful that it allows them to approach game development from an angle that no-one else in the game industry can, and working with them back then imparted those benefits to us by association.

It helped that in the L4D days, we were never bigger than 13 people. The industry has changed since then and we’ve had to grow a lot. We’re sitting at about 90+ at the moment (which is still considered small) and still growing. I like to think we’re still the same down to earth guys we were then, trying to make great games in a very tough industry.

The bundles are options, nothing more. IF you plan to buy all that stuff anyway then you can get a bundle with all that content at a discount. Not a new concept, businesses have been doing that since money was invented. I’ve bought passes for games where I felt burned and I’ve bought passes for games and was happy with my purchase. But that’s a personal choice, as is any purchase. All of those different tiers are there to provide options.

Ultimately, TRS makes the games, we don’t sell them…and as the developers we’ve done our best to make a game that people want to play. We then have to trust our publisher to make the best decision on how to sell that game. We’ve done everything we could to keep this stuff as open to choice as possible and despite how it may look to some, there isn’t anything here that forces people to spend more money than they are comfortable with. We feel like all of the Evolve bundles that 2K announced just offer people choices, and having choices isn’t a bad thing.


Evolve have few monsters
Tier Four Hunters Revealed
4th Tier Hunters
DLC Pricing
#20

Best. Response. Ever.