The Tumbling


#1

In Evolve as of now I feel like it’s all about the tumble.

A monster can only down a hunter if it hits a combo of abilities in a short period of time. Otherwise the heals and shields are too strong. To achieve this all the monsters have to CC the hunter. (except Gorgon maybe)

  • Goliath needs to hit with Leap Smash or Charge followed by Rock Throw when the hunter tumbles
  • Kraken needs to tumble the hunters with Banshee Mines / Vortex into Lightning Strike into After Shock
  • Wraith needs to perma-stun the hunter with melee hits and Abduct
  • Behemoth needs to roll the Hunter over again and again against a wall or execute a Tongue Grap, Lava Bomb, Rock Wall combo
  • Gorgon needs to Spider Trap somebody onto Acid (although Gorgon is more about CC’ing all of the hunters and does not rely on comboing abilities as much as the other monsters)

In all of these scenarios, basically one mistake on the hunter side can lead to a chain of events where you have no control over your character and therefore cannot do anything. That leads to very frustrating gaming experience.
For example, yesterday I was hit by a Goliath’s Leap Smash mid-air, flew against a wall with no control over my character. Then the Rock Throw hit me and I was incapped by Flame Breath. I made one mistake to not dodge that Leap Smash and it lead to a chain of combos where I couldn’t do anything to get away.
Of course most of the times you shoot the Banshee Mines, or dodge the initial ability. But if you don’t often you’re pretty much screwed without a chance to counter.

Monster’s should not have to rely on tumbling the hunters so much. Novice monsters don’t know that and cannot get any strikes. And on the hunter side, one mistake can lead to losing all of your health without ever getting control over your hunter. It’s all about exploting one mistake and not about consistently hitting your abilities.
Of course combos require skill and I really like that aspect. But on the other side it can be pretty frustrating…

I don’t have a perfect solution for the tumbling problem. I just wanted to open a discussion on that issue. Maybe reduce the tumble and in return reduce the healing, too?
Do you even feel like that’s a problem or am I the only one? :smiley:


How can Slim be made a more viable medic?
#2

Yes, I agree with this. It goes both ways though, the thing is on the hunter side the tumble is CC and movement.

Tbh, strategy in this game seems to be getting more focused around removing control from your opponent. The way each side wins seems to revolve around crippling their opponents until they can barely fight, then moving in for the kill¤. Whether it be tumbling a hunter to death or chasing a monster so hard it can’t even armor up, both are really not too fun to deal with.

¤When I first got this game in the alpha it seemed like traps/deployables and buffs would be more the theme of the abilities. But so far i’ve seen more movement and/or CC abilities added to characters. Characters that arent trappers.


#3

Yeah, that too. Good point. The monster should be able to choose the place of fight more often in high level play. Against low level hunters you can pretty much dictate the whole game as a monster…


#4

I think they should keep it, honestly. I mean, if you make one mistake you’re very, very likely to go down. But if that one mistake isn’t hit-or-miss, win the round or lose the round for you, it isn’t that hard. Therefor, it is not as imperative to learn from that as a game-costing mistake.Being able to dodge or hide extremely well against extremely good players and combos can allow you to more quickly learn how to become a better player. Softening it won’t help at all. It may only make it worse. Yeah it’s a very tough lesson and one that is very tough to learn, but it’ll be worth it.
I am not saying that you’re bad. What I’m saying is that this game is tough. But it’s for a good reason.


#5

i think it’s quite the opposite. right now a single mistake can take you to the dropship meaning you won’t get to learn anything for at least 2.5 minutes. if the monster wins during that time, you’re back to the stats screen and then searching a new monster, which is a lot more time without playing and learning the game.

if a mistake only cost you (making up numbers here) 50%, it would still hurt, you’d realize you made a mistake, but you can try to not make it again immediately, which increases the learning effect, making people learn the game quicker and reducing frustration.
to add to that it’s often not obvious what the mistake was, because you see the attack coming, try to dodge it, yet it still hits you. i’ve often been hit and instead of “i see what i did wrong” got the feeling of “how the fuck did that hit”. it’s little stuff like this, that frustrates new players and makes them quit.


#6

That happens to me sometimes as well. I do like the idea of reducing it, but not softening it too much. I mean, I know the frustration of Dropship Simulator but if you’re in that, then that most likely means you have a monster that isn’t on the level your team is on. Again, not saying the monster is better, I’m saying that try-hards or sadists love dropship simulator as monsters. There is no way to learn anything from that, regardless of whether not not you live or die. That or your team isn’t up to scratch and can hurt.

Making things like Fissure easily avoidable own’t be good. However, being taught directly how to dodge (because obviously jumping doesn’t help) helps more. I remember double-jumping over a fissure and it still hurt me. Being taught the pros and cons as both the monster and hunter would help way more in the longrun than reducing it, in my humble opinion.


#7

The hell is going on?

someone give me the 411.


#8

this is exactly the kind of counter intuitive stuff i was mentioning. fissure is the ground braking apart. it should be avoidable by jumping over it (there’s lava coming out of the ground so some height is required) but the altitude at which it still does damage seems ridiculous to those not used to it.

i think a lot of new player frustration might be reduced by making it easier to recognize what an effect does. for fissure for example make lava fountains coming out of it as high as the damage radius.

another example of this is lavabomb which looks like just a few burning rocks. i can stand next to a burning car or other ambient fires in the map fine, so people don’t expect the burning rocks of lava bomb to do such a high amount of damage. reducing the damage would be wrong, so the better solution would be to make it look more terrifying, like real puddles of lava. no one would want to stand in those.


#9

Fissure is lava shooting up out of the ground heat rises it’s not that surprising that you get damaged by it.

A lot of monster abilities could use a more distinctive damage radius especially Warp Blast.

To be fair tire fires or car fires that are smoldering don’t burn at quite the same level as fresh lava.


#10

Game logic: Red fire is just as good as red fire. Red fire = burning tire. Red fire = Lava Bomb. So naturally, one would assume: burning tire = Lava Bomb when, in actuality, they do not. Blue fire > Red fire. Meteor Goliath burns you with every attack as he is on fire and blue. So naturally, blue fire = lost hp.

Now in Evolve you can see that this does not work at all. Danger is not color-coded. In most games, though, it is. So keep that in mind… along with the fact that ‘logic’ isn’t a game component. So logically, a ball of fire would hurt. But since it’s a video game, the monster hurled a fiery ball at you. It did damage. The name is ‘lava bomb’ and it looks like it. However, the fire effects are probably there to make it look cooler. By bad experience do you realize otherwise. The pain here is a bit more subtle than the initial blow.


#11

I think lava bomb DOT looks and sounds really menacing. two cents is all


#12

A thread on the shift of the game towards being more CC-oriented, even in terms of the monsters (tumbling).


#13

This frustrated me. I haven’t play much recently, but I hated this. Especially when abilities were still hitting you when you were out of the visible radius - like some people have mentioned - like LS. I ma out of the visible radius, and while I don’t get damaged, I still get stunned. Vortex, banshee and I’m dead.


#14

It does. However, like I said: Most games do a lot of things for the aesthetic value when working on their abilities. Evolve is not such a one, but there are many out there. Evolve is unique in a lot of ways. This is just one trait that it shares with a few, but not many, games.


#15

It’s a difficult thing to balance I’m sure because if you completely remove tumble you remove the ability of most of the monsters to combo their abilities together with any sort of ease against against hunters with any sort of skill

But it is utterly frustrating as a hunter to have control ripped from you the while time between the first point damage to the point where you go down

Especially when you have a full jetpack or even one boost in the tank left

My only real issue with tumble is that it puts the same delay on using your jetpack as it does as using your weapon. Meaning in tumble your only hope is that the tumble knocks you backwards away from the next attack and you have enough time to jam your jetpack boost… praying you can get control in time

The hunters should be given their air control back to counter the tumble. Either remove or reduce the delay on the jetpack use while being tumble… I personally think it would bring a modicum of skill into tumbling besides… OOOO I landed my first attack… heap on the damage onto my frustrated opponent… even for abilities like vortex, tongue grab, fissure (which could have longer delays than usual, but still shorter than the tumble king skills they are current) you could supplement their earlier meta utility with extra damge

This would at the very least force the monster to make the hunters use all/most their of jetpack to get away… Either with melee or by using abilities… it would also eliminate a lot of the cheesiest combos in the game

Vortex + lightning strike

Leap smash + rock throw

Tongue grab + roll + fissure

While still leaving the monster the chance for combos at high level and when they get lucky and burn out all of the hunters fuel


#16

If monsters can’t combo then cancer comps become even more boring to play against.


#17

Tumble is one of the better ways a monster can counter good play. I know that if I can’t effectively use a Tongue Grab+Wall+Fissure or an Abduction+Supernova then it would be way more difficult for me to win- or get close. Who needs MORE of that stress in their life? :stuck_out_tongue:

In addition, these are strategies many monsters had adopted to actually counter good teams/under-the-belt comps. If you have Sunny on the team, one of your only hopes for touching a hunter is through tumble. God forbid you have a Val on the team as well. Your chances of winning get lower and lower if you can’t stun people.


#18

So your only real issue is losing control of your hunter? If they gave you back jetpack earlier in the tumble tumble would be effectively shortened again and monsters would get another nerf and sunny would be an even better choice.


#19

I’m sorry I checked the title and this thread is called:
The tumbling

Not balancing the tumbling in regards to cancer comps

Not how to get comps that involve sunny balanced or at least in check

Nor pander to that one guy who hears your suggestions and then expects that your suggesting that monsters be nerfed or that you must give examples in regards to how it must be balanced in regards to a character who needs to be needed or toned down

So yeah, in regards to THE TUMBLING. The only issue I have is the total loss of control that monsters must use to obtain a down

As a monster and a hunter it feels like a cheap no-skill reliance on basic understanding of the games physics/mechanics to cheese-win

I hope that was better explained the second time… Sorry for confusion


#20

I was talking about the main point of tumble is to take away control to allow combos if you don’t take away control there is almost no point to it unless the hunters don’t know how to manage jet pack.