The Science of Monsters - A Theory on Origin and Intent [Updated after Matthew's second story livestream]


#81

I’ll admit, I’m smileing about this a lot more than I should. :laughing: Well played!


#82

Sorry Takran, but the game already knew the point of origin. :stuck_out_tongue:

/badjoke


#83

Well, dang, how long has that been there?! :laughing: At least I can go into more detail.

I need to read all the descriptions closer. I mean, lennox was mentioned since way back in march. Who knows what details we may have skimmed over.


#84

Hopefully where the cupcakes are.


#85

Me.

:smiley:


#86

This thread.

Not even in university and I understood most of it. I’m not familiar with Minkowsky, though, so I had to actually read that part a couple times to get what you were referring to.

Any suggested reading material? Always interested to learn.

Major props, by the way. Easily one of the best scientific presentations I’ve had the pleasure of reading. Usually, they grind a good bit.


#87

Now you just remind me of this:


#88

Thank you so much! I have a pet peeve when sciencey people go out of their way to make things sound more complex than they are. I did my best to analyze everything as directly as I could. There were a lot of things I was not familiar with when I started this analysis, and I did about a week of reading to understand the basics enough to summarize whatever I felt was significant.

What would you like to read on? There are so many good subjects here.


#89

There are a lot of noice things here. I did notice in another thread you were talking about biochemistry. I was actually interested in that, but don’t know where to start. Also, where you got your string theory information. It’s a subject I’m oddly light on.


#90

As for the biochem stuff, the most interesting is on the synthesis and properties of HNA. There are some interesting papers I used while writing this here:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja016570w

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07328319708006119

I also had to do some reading on Wolff-Krishna reductions and steric effects, but those are a little less glamorous.

As for string theory, I got most of what I know directly from my crazy awesome high school physics teacher. I don’t have tons of reading on it, but I do have some good starting points if you wanna learn more as well as a good nova documentary.

http://www.superstringtheory.com/index.html


#91

Thank you. Will be reading this when I’m not playing Evolve.


#92

My running theory is actually that our universe is actually a true vacuum and that their reality is a false vacuum.

It explains the HNA’s instability and requirement of using Bohrium decay to maintain their forms, as their mere existence would require a high amount of energy just to stabilize. it also explains why they would need “eggs,” to help cushion the change in energy. Kind of like needing a pillow on the floor in your book analogy. They would be books that…uh…shatter, if they hit the ground too hard, so the eggs cushion the blow…but on a quantum level.

It also makes the story much darker, and explains a reality where they don’t maintain a corporeal form, as they would then be beings of energy. If they cannot nucleate our reality, due to them actually being the ones in the false vacuum…then we’d just be fighting a war of attrition + some kind of almost religious hatred for our technology.

And in relation to them being a hive mind + being higher energy, it would explain why they would return to the void and not die. Kind of as if they’re constantly attached to a bungee chord and if they aren’t careful, they get slingshot back to where they started. And I mean that on somewhat of a quantum physics level. Caira mentioned before that she wanted to put them in a Faraday cage and see what type of energy field they used to communicate, believing it was subastral. This hive mind could be some form of energy field that uses the HNA as a shell to anchor themselves to our reality.

Each time they die, they lose the bond with the anchor and get shot back, but the hive mind still remains. One interesting thing that Maggie sometimes says is that they, “get smarter, but they never learn,” I have had a running hunch that this has a lot more truth to it than we consider.

I believe what this might mean is that the mind is almost making copies of itself that enter our world, but they never relay back to the original. I believe that they might “reverse” their time when they return, which would explain why they never seem to learn anything from interacting with us. Like sending in kamikaze fighters that have no way of relaying information. When they come back, it’s as if they never left because the hive mind doesn’t gain any feedback. This last paragraph is merely my speculation, but it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.

This is my field, but I tried not to get too technical.


#93

In Kala’s story on the forums she and Tom have a discussion about how CIG9 (probably Val) has written a tactics guide for fighting the monsters. They mention how the monsters appear to have learned what individual hunters are capable of.

Now, this could only be individual monsters learning what hunters can do, but I didn’t read it that way. I think the monsters are retaining things they knew before each of their “deaths”.


#94

I tend to lean toward the monsters being in a true vacuum and humans being in a false vacuum for similar reasons. If monsters occupied an optimal energy level, and had to exert massive amounts of energy to get into our false vacuum, it would do well to explain their pain and natural hate for our world. Again with the book and the shelf, it’s like they’re the book on the ground, and they have to get up on the shelf without somebody picking them up, then they have to maintain that energy level that their bodies don’t naturally exist at. That sounds hugely painful. The same can be said for their return to the void - their high energy body decays, and they return to their ground state. More of a gravity kind of situation than a bungee chord. I could imagine either working though.

As for maggie’s quote, I think she isn’t being literal. I think it is along the lines of “they’re learning new things and new tricks, but they’ll never learn that they can’t defeat humanity”. The impression I get is that they are learning and bringing back knowledge of the hunters each time. It’s how monsters recognize and strategize against them like observed in Val’s journal.


#95

Using HNA contradicts your leaning toward us being in a false vacuum. If they needed to exert an amount of energy to get into our existence, it would be much more beneficial for them to just use DNA as an anchor.

HNA is unstable because it is way higher in energy than necessary. In known quantum dynamics, it is easier for interactions to occur at levels closer to their base levels. If the monsters were in a true vacuum, it would be far easier and more efficient for them to anchor themselves to DNA rather than to HNA.

If energy level were represented by high to low:

false vacuum

HNA

DNA

true vacuum

Anchoring themselves to HNA instead of DNA (assuming that it is because of their quantum states) would be like traveling the entire length of the earth in a western direction just to end up 40 feet east of the starting position. If they were indeed the ones in the true vacuum.


#96

In your analogy with the book, if the Monsters were indeed in a true vacuum, anchoring to HNA would be like the book needing to blast upward through the roof and decay until they dropped on top of the shelf.

DNA would be someone placing the book on the shelf.

And if that were the case, Kala’s DNA would probably stabilize the HNA and cease activity, naturally. Otherwise, it would take a high energy anchor for the HNA to continue doing the weird crap it does…which then indicates a quantum state higher than the surrounding environment.

Think of it like heat. It’s more efficient for ice to melt into water than to superheat the ice until it steams and then waiting for it to condense. The change in energy is too inefficient for natural entropy (disorder) interactions.


#97

Ooohhhh, I like the way you think. That is a very interesting point. I can still see either argument being valid though - this part is a little too deep into pseudoscience to get a solid conclusion.

While a monster’s HNA does require higher energy states to stabalize steric effects, it is also more chemically stable than DNA. We know the monsters genomes don’t work like a typical biological entity within our vacuum - they are constantly changing and rearranging. It is implied thst these changes occur through Cherenkov space, flowing in and out of our dimension so that every monster has every other monsters full generic information accessible at any time. I hypothesize that they must be able to retain stability while having components that exist both in and out of Cherenkov Space at the same time. It is very possible that DNA cannot maintain stability under these conditions, forcing the use of some other generic material that can.

The fact that they can manifest at all implies they have some control over their own forms in our dimension. If they really abhor our vacuum so much that they would create physically and emotionally painful bodies, it would make sense that they’d be willing to put in a little extra energy to force us to lose ours.

But again, it’s all pseudoscience - you may be totally right! It all hinges on what constitutes necessity of a monster’s generic structure, which we may never truly know. In this case, I’m just trying to explore all possibilities.


#98

The chemical instability of DNA is so that DNA can be changed. The kinetics of the system help give DNA its ability to stay together due to hydrogen bonding between purine-pyrimidine pairs. HNA is more stable, yes, but that ALSO means that it needs more energy to break those bonds and rearrange them. The fact that the Monster HNA is rearranging rapidly means that there is a surplus of energy available for them to break apart and reconstitute.

If the Monsters do use HNA to travel through C-space - assuming enough energy is needed to interact with the plane - then said HNA’s stability would attribute to the Monsters not falling apart were they to travel through C-space in an unregulated (no teleporter/dive anchor) method. The HNA prevents them from being ripped apart.

We also have to remember that a Patterson drive is based on high energy fuel source of Bohrium. Which again, is higher energy than the target material and environment.

In the high to low model:

C-space

Minkowski space

Our plane of existence would require enough energy to interact with the C-space materials. Thus, we have Bohrium and the Patterson Drive (which is a large engine) - again, high energy interactions.

Think of C-space as a glass of water.
Our plane of existence would be like placing a sugar cube in the water.
The energy of the water interacting with the sugar cube takes longer time to disperse evenly through the water just by natural kinetics. It will happen, but it takes a while.
Now, let’s imagine that the Patterson drive is what generates syrup.
The syrup is the same as the sugar cube, but it is in a higher state - solid vs liquid - and thus the syrup more easily interacts with the water environment.
A raise in energy allows interactions to occur. That is a fundamental concept in our current understanding of physics.

While the sci-fi physics is just theory, the concepts in our current understanding of physics would still form the basis, seeing as most of the concepts beside Rank-Rajat and Patterson fields are all rooted in current day physics, it’s not too much of a stretch to assume they follow the same base principles.

While it would be interesting for us to be in a false vacuum, the evidence supports the notion that we are not.

Were we in a false vacuum, on a biological level, the Monsters would probably not be able to demonstrate high energy interactions with our universe (rapid mutation.) It would be like sugar trying to dissolve itself in air.
(Sublimation is possible, but the interactions just aren’t there.)

The fact that the HNA maintains a reserve amount of energy to spontaneously mismatch with base pairing (this is now super sci-fi, since it means that it has some semblance of…consciousness/awareness), shows that the monster tissue has a reserve level of energy, even though its metabolism would be inert (which really contradicts them being in a true vacuum.)


#99

Omg you are such a tease!


#100

And, in a thousand years after the events of Shear the surviving humans will teach of the folly our ancestors wrought as they breached the firmament in their ignorance and greed. Of the gods who brought fire and lightning through their ever changing proxies.

Here’s something interesting, the monsters have a concept of time and as a result of that, entropy.

This means that wherever they come from, their dimension or universe suffers from entropy too. They have unstable and uneven areas of varying energy states. But they seem to come from a universe that has an even higher probably energy state. I might be on to something here… so bear with me?

Humans exist in a universe that is of a lower energy state, we are like phantoms to the monsters cold phantoms. When humans breach into cherenkov space, we sap energy from their extremely vibrant universe. This is why we hurt them and it is also why they feel we are a false vaccum, we are so cold to them. When they breach into C space they are full of vibrancy and energy.

We are cold incorporeal phantoms who steal their energy, they are burning vibrant lifeforms.