The monster is a BOSS, and don't you forget about it!


#1

I’ve seen a lot of concern bout the monsters power in the game. Many people call them unbalanced or straight overpowered. I would like to address these concerns and explain why all this discussion is very relative and cannot be set in stone.

90% of us who played the alpha will say "I won 90-100% of my monster games I’m awesome/monster is OP

First of all, all these matches were against random strangers who’s knowledge of the game was pretty low or even non-existent.

Second- to “pick up” and learn the basics of monster play you have to understand and utilize it’s full kit. Then it goes down to reacting to what the hunters do.

Hunters on the other hand have to learn the basics of the kit they are using,they have to know what the kits of other players do so they can work together, they have to communicate and actually manage to do timed actions/use teamwork, react to what the monster does AND to what the rest of the team does as well.

which comes down to: the monsters BASIC(BASIC!) learning curve is much,much lower than the hunters in order to win a game.

Don’t forget about what the games parents said about the game - it’s a gigantic BOSS battle. The monster is a BOSS- he is to be strong, because a boss that you can bitch-slap to your liking isn’t really a boss. You are supposed to fear & respect him from the very beginning, so logic dictates the monster actually has something to show for it.

Last thing you need not forget- teamwork. This is a co-op game. Cooperation isn’t optional, it’s the main principle.
If you cannot cooperate with your team then you get destroyed by the monster.
If you cannot react accordingly to the monsters strategy(map and game mode dependent of course) while working together, then you get destroyed by the monster.
The monster players don’t have to concern themselves with such matters - doing ONLY your own thing is much easier than coordinated adapting.

It will take a month I suppose, but mark my words- after release there will be talk about monsters being too weak.

The moment any of the “I’m the best monster there is-never lost a game” (aside from my sworn nemesis) guys get coped against a team of hunters that keeps relentless pursuit and stays on top of them for the entire game, while never stopping to deal damage- they will get wrecked and devastated and then they will realize that it isn’t a slow paced shopping spree in the local mall, but a fierce fight for every SlabOMeat during black Friday.

In addition to our alpha experience we also watched the livestreams,some of which included good, knowledgeable players- many people determine that the monster is too strong simply because we’ve seen more monster wins than hunter.
Ask yourself: “do I really want to make an opinion based on closed-test-environment footage that wasn’t more than a few dozen games all of which had one main purpose which was DEMONSTRATION?”

I used to play L4D and even after having an awful day full of heavy defeats in versus matches I never thought anything like “wow,the special infected are so OP”. Chance is a big factor here, no matter how much skill and effort the players have. RNG gods are always watching and they had the most say during the footage people based their “OP monster” opinions off of.

Last thing I wanted to say- I have faith in the developers- many people worked as hard as they could to deliver us a polished product.
I refuse to insult them by saying that their hard work trying to balance the game(which was one of the most important things for an asymmetrical game) isn’t worth a damn.
I’d rather get to know the game from a perspective they were looking at it when they considered gameplay balance.
IT IS there, only it doesn’t work under what you dictate - in order to have balance you need to understand how to achieve it.

I’m not saying the game is perfect at it’s current state- that what tests are for. Thanks to the alpha Krakens vortex damage was reduced. As more and more people play and more and more info reaches the developers we MIGHT get some tweaks, but based on real data, not subjective opinions of people who simply have no means of seeing the whole picture.


#2

I agree. I feel that the monster has a higher skill floor than the Hunters. This means that those who are great with a Monster will be really good until Hunters are able to coordinate and work together better.


#3

I understand all of what you’ve just said, but it basically amounts to “Player strategies and skills will evolve throughout the game’s lifetime so it’s impossible to say anything for sure yet,” which is valid. Still, the lack of agency for the hunters troubles me. Mobility and decision-making power wins games, and the monster has both in spades.


#4

[quote=“Jihad, post:3, topic:25802”]
“Player strategies and skills will evolve throughout the game’s lifetime so it’s impossible to say anything for sure yet,”
[/quote] this also, but I’m inclining towards the belief that the game is, in core, more or less BALANCED as it is if played by a knowledgeable player who knows how to utilize the games mechanics.

It’s the same in TF2,BF4 or any other team oriented game. The team that has more people who are technically familiar with the game will always win. How many times many good TF2 players got dominated by 2 medic+heavy teams working in unison? Same goes for BF4- some people blindly run to their deaths and blame their team for defeat, while others use strategies, keep an eye on the team tickets, look up the map to find that enemy sniper/artillery truck/tank that’s been on a killing spree for 5 minutes and focus on eliminating them with their squad. This creates situation where players who don’t know any better start to believe the game lacks balance, but in truth, if everyone played the game using all the tools it gives at their disposal most of them would be practically perfectly balanced.

I’m talking about mirror team games, but the foundations of the thought stay the same - I’m pretty sure that if Evolve came down to skill + RNG then players on a similar level would never see the game as unbalanced. That’s actually one more argument towards how many peoples views are based on falsehood- the developers admitted that matchmaking during the alpha was very far from perfect.

I hope that the beta with its improved matchmaking will prove what I said to be true and will allow people to enjoy the hard work and all the time the developers put into balancing it, making them feel that their win or loss depends on their skill and eventual RNG rather than luck and the monster player being bad.

@Reinaldo_Villa Sorry man, but I don’t play on consoles. I hate using controllers and…I won’t even start, had a riled talk about this today already. If you do however play on PC then my steam id is in my profile info.


#5

What is your gt, I am interested in taking down monsters for beta.


#6

Text wall is a great thing. The only problem is that you can’t drop it most of the time, and people who’ll come here to whine don’t read pinned topics most of the time.

Also, how the hell am I posting at 3 am.


#7

But some people have legitimate concerns and are willing to read an equivalent of a book page in order to maybe get some clarification.


#8

I for one like reading and your points are can valid. Problem is people would rather complain then learn.


#9

Those, however, won’t need to be told how things are in this fashion.

Either they’ll understand from simply being explained to, or the person won’t understand at all.


#10

I don’t fancy myself a sociologist so maybe you’re right, but I have some little bits of faith in humanity here and there.


#11

That about sums up the discussion.


#12

I agree in that the game is balanced- almost perfectly so, in fact. A year ago, my only concerns for this game were balance and longevity. Now that those two matters have been cleanly addressed my only concern is the aesthetics of the UI, which I feel could use some work. It annoys me to see people judge the game by a few matches, but it also worries me, because I feel like a lot of people won’t give it the chance it needs to shine.

Nevertheless, Evolve has the makings of a masterpiece. Except that HUD. It’s an eyesore. :wink:


#13

I’m sorry, but as much as I hate to say it, I don’t feel that the game is balanced right now.

last stream where the monster just whipped the floor with the hunters kind of confirmed it for me. Remember when the monster was supposed to be ‘weaker’ than the hunters at stage 1? That they have an advantage over him?

No they don’t. The monster can quite easily get a strike or two on the hunters while losing none or minimal health. Or at the very least take down the trapper without losing health, resulting in a free strike (unless they have Laz) but at least an escape without losing health.
And the hunters actually have to be careful of a stage 1 monster if the terrain is in his advantage. Fight just so happens to be near a Tyrant/Crowbill Sloth? Forget it, the monster will win it. Drop the dome.

Oh, and not not mention if he has a ‘balanced’ elite buff like cooldown reduction or damage increase. It becomes straight up lethal if you dome a stage 1 monster then! Can the hunter’s prevent him from getting this buff? Not really. In his head-start the monster can already create so much distance that he is bound to have found one of the good buffs. All he has to do is fully eat the body and it is denied from the hunters.
Meanwhile, all the hunter’s can do is kill the creature and wait for it to decompose. How long do you think that will take on a 4 meat tyrant, armadon or sloth with his precious buffs?


#15

I have played more monster than hunters and I rarely felt advantaged at stage one unless I was taking on a single pair of hunters. When I got domed stage one it was a really really bad sign for me.

I never felt as a hunter that the monster was strong at stage one, he was still stronger than a single hunter but the hunters are supposed to be working together.

I don’t have any solid evidence that the balance is good so I won’t put forward a bunch of anecdotal points but I have faith in TRS that if the telemetry data comes back saying the monsters have a higher win rate than 50% the will look at why and make adjustments.


#16

You make valid points but just two weeks ago we saw Wraith get curb stomped by the devs. A lot of times JAM caught the hunters alone or in smaller groups. He always started with 1 decoy and 2 supernova, a excellent mix of damage and deception. The beta will help the devs figure out imbalances in the game. Maybe certain combinations of circumstances lead to the monster wiping out the hunters at stage 1 but that should be the exception not the rule.

JAM is just OP with the monsters.


#17

I haven’t seen the footage of which you speak of. I tried to find it but without luck. Could you post a link?

Again, I haven’t seen the footage, but I’m going to take a wild guess and call it bad hunter play. IMO a stage 1 engage from the monster is extremely beneficial. There’s more to it than just down penalties and a good hunter team should know that and expect that the monster might come to them… they should not be surprised. . Did they throw down the dome immediately? Then shame on them. Did the team do their best to protect the trapper and did the trapper know that the monster was very likely to mainly target him/her? No? Then shame on them. There’s more I believe they could have done, but I already have a section about this in the Monster document for the team (which I will put up very soon).

Even the developers do stage 1 engagements. Some even do several before going to stage 2.

As @Time_stops_now said, you are supposed to fear and respect him from the very beginning.


#18

There you go.


#19

I don’t have any footage, but I remember Sacriel’s stream from the Big Alpha. He was playing against the devs and just TOYING with them. Too bad it has gone of the bas broadcast list.


#20

Oh I thought you were referring to the last live stream.


#21

Okay,I’m re-watching the stream now. I have to do some work too, so I’ll be updating this bit by bit as I watch chunks of the video. ED: wanted to state that this analysis is based on very little footage that we’re being shown of the hunters,so I might be dead wrong with my accusations, but I sincerely tried to understand what was going on and why.

After the first fight(10:22) we get a glimpse of Lazarus by Assaults body and we can see the prompt for the Lazarus device(11:42) that Lazarus completely ignores(before he lands there you can see the timer is 20+).

Then look at (13:25) where we can clearly see that Assault is still dead(not to mention Lazarus was doing nothing, miles away from trapper and support. )

Other thing that led to their demise and even more severely I might add was Griffin.

I did not see a SINGE HARPOON through all the fights - look at the first fight 11:00-11:21 - with the wraith JUST BY HIM and pounding his team into a bloody pulp, while he merrily just stands on the ledge,completely ignored by the monster because he was doing NOTHING. Shooting an armored monster with the trapper during an all out early team fight is just dumb.
The second MOST important function of the trapper(besides trapping the monster inside the dome) is CROWD CONTROL. Making sure the monster is hindered, slowed down, even if for a portion of a second.

I don’t have the actual experience, but seeing as the wraith is the most swift & sneaky of them all, hindering it’s movement is even more important(especially with how squishy the wraith is - we all saw that even one second can lead to severe loss of armor/health- that one second (that would accumulate to a few or even a dozen seconds if he ever used the harpoon gun) that Griffin never bought for his team, not once.

I would comment on the sound spikes as well, but there’s too little to be certain he didn’t fully utilize them,so I won’t pick on it. All in all, Lazarus derping out and Griffin deciding to play pew-pew-pew instead of doing his job lead the wraith to an easy victory on S3 with almost no health damage.

However good @DB_Sinclair says these guys are, their performance in this round was just awful, so It’s no proof of the monster being OP.

With that being said- it proves my point further- we have our good and bad moments and if it happens that some people did a bad performance, it doesn’t mean that they’re bad altogether and it also shouldn’t be an example of how the monster is too strong.

comment and analysis of the next round will follow in an hour or so.