The Last Jedi [SPOILERS!]


#61

I think you need to watch the older movies and try not to let nostalgia cloud your judgement.


#62

I have watched them dozen of times, I get your point yes, they have humor in them too. Han was the smartass. But in these new movies where Disney stuck their head into really messed up the so called -comedy- in them in my opinion. What fun that would be if everyone would agree with eachother?


#63

It’s not just Han being a smart ass. The OT were filled with groan inducing humor, the prequels took it to a whole new level. If anything tfa/tlj are on par with the OT.


#64

I found it to be mediocre at best. I really hated Rose and she was just there… to be there. They should have let Leia die, what even did she do in the movie?


#65

I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.


#66

Well I dont know it just seems these days taking things to another level just screws things even more. You’re right, I should rewatch the OT again, but I never got the feeling like “… what?” from OT movies, but from the new ones, plenty of times. The new SW films feels like they should be played on a saturday morning on cartoon network for kids.


#67

Hate is such a strong emotion for someone you thought was pointless. I understand hatred because her character did something you dislike, but hating something just because they’re there?

Besides, I disagree, she was the heart of the movie!


#68

Spare me your feelings. I didn’t like her.


#69

Sure, but why?


#70

Yeah I didn’t particularly care for Rose either. The only real reason she was included was because her sister died. I feel like Finn could’ve gone on that mission by himself with bb-8. Also her love for Finn felt a bit forced imo. I kinda groaned when she saved him. I really thought they were gonna make a bold move and kill Finn off, which I think would’ve been a great twist and motivation for other characters.


#71

I’ve wrapped myself up in spoilers because I’m not sure if I’ll be able to see the film due to personal reasons. So, I’m here to give my observational two cents. Not gospel, not even really a review. Just kinda what I’ve seen coming from different people.

It seems to largely be a movie that many people are split on. General fans are often found loving it, but I see a lot of complaints from really hardcore Star Wars fans, though of course there are exceptions. I think there is a valid point in the aforementioned statement that some fans hate whatever deviates from the original but whatever follows the original is labeled a rehash; it’s hard to find a middle ground when fans don’t allow one to exist.

However, from my readings, I see complaints about 3 different characters consistently; Snoke, Luke and Rose. I personally am not happy that they killed off Luke because I grew up with him. It sounds like he didn’t do much either, which is unfortunate. Obvious bias is obvious, putting it out there now. I applaud the effort of trying to subvert the OT by killing off the “evil old asshole” early on, but after so much buildup to have him killed off as he was is, in the short term, anticlimactic, but, in the long term, an interesting move. It’s anticlimactic because we were told Snoke could be even more powerful than Sidious and Vader. He (apparently) easily handled anyone who confronted him. And then he just dies in a sudden twist. There was a lot of mystery surrounding this character and a lot of potential, and unless they choose to expand on it later, now it is just…gone. But here’s where it gets interesting. Snoke is dead. What is Kylo gonna do now? He’s not a leader. He’s not a full fledged Sith. He even calls out to Rey pleasing for her to be with him, because she’s the only other person who might understand, and Rey leaves him, alone in the dark. I am curious to see how this will continue.

Rose. She gets her own paragraph. Everything I’ve read barring what I’ve read here has been a complaint about her. I’ve seen her called a “proper Mary Sue.” I’ve seen her called a complete waste of time. She says “don’t be a hero” but then she is the one who stays behind for the awesome light-speed Kamikaze? Seems inconsistent. And she’s a love interest, too? Odd. From what I’ve read, I agree with @SledgePainter and @Katt that it seems like she’s just there and for no reason at all. Even a well acted character with no purpose still has no purpose. If they were killing Luke, they might as well have killed Leia in the process, too.

Lastly, there was apparently some 30 minute code breaking subplot that was a complete waste of time, but those are the words of others, so don’t quote me on that.

So, I’ve talked about a lot of negatives, I want to talk about the most consistent positive things I’ve read about.

Adam Driver apparently has made the Kylo Ren the most unique Sith Lord yet. As a thread on Reddit said, “he’s one of the first Sith Lord’s that isn’t sure about himself, and he’s afraid. And fear is a big component of the dark side.” I hated Kylo in TFA, but it sounds like his character might have really improved in this one from being a crybaby to someone who’s genuinely at a loss of what to do with himself. Truly something that should be appreciated.

Kylo and Rey apparently have this spirit bridge thing going on. It’s an interesting concept and I’d like to see more new and interesting Force powers and concepts used. A form of telepathy is awesome.

The light speed Kamikaze. As a physics major, I can’t even imagine how amazing it must have been on the big screen.

Again, astral projection by Luke. Pretty amazing. Why couldn’t they have kept him more?!


Overall, that’s what I’ve read and those are my thoughts based on very limited spoiler interaction. It seems like, as a film, TLJ is another big win for Disney, but as a Star Wars film, it seems it still doesn’t match up with fans. With Disney’s recent acquisition of Fox comes an acquisition of the Alien franchise. Seeing the divides Disney’s films have made for Star Wars, I’m wondering if Alien will face even more polarizing film’s than what Ridley is doing. I hope that the Alien franchise still has a future under Disney’s helm.


#72

I think this is an important statement too, adding on to what I said in my independent post. It is this exact statement that I say to myself whenever I see someone say they want to bring Ripley and Hicks back to Alien. There comes a point in time when it’s time for the franchise to move away from old characters, because being stubborn and only wanting the old crew will hurt our ability to accept a new cast and new stories. It’s not even limited to Star Wars or Alien, I see a growing trend in many fandoms and franchises that simply refuse to move on from it’s old cast and it begins to drag the franchises down because fans will find it harder and harder to accept anyone new. New characters and stories within a franchise are inevitable. We should focus not on who’s the protagonist but how good of a protagonist they are and the story they journey through.


#73

It’s only a waste of time if the only reason to have the “good guys” do anything on a screen is to succeed. I feel out of all the things that fans have got wrong criticising about this film, this is the biggest thing.

Here are the things the supposedly “pointless” plot whereby Finn and Rose go to find a code breaker, then sneak on to Snoke’s ship before trying and failing to achieve the goal of letting the remainder of the fleet jump away… Spoilers OBVIOUSLY, in case you didn’t want to get more entrenched in them!

  1. It provides for Finn’s character development. As I said above, in TFA he is basically out for himself and his friends. He’s horrified by war and that has been enough to make him a deserter, but while he’s green enough to get into crazy fights in order to save the only person that he’s known to be a friend in Rey, he’s no hero. In fact he’s barely any more a hero by the end of TFA than Han is at the end of ANH. He’s got virtuous yet selfish drives and that’s it.

    He starts this film literally ready to abandon the fleet just to go and try to meet back up with Rey. He literally doesn’t care about the republic at the start of TLJ, he obviously fears and dislikes the First Order, but not enough to stick around. He is, in character terms, your average Joe audence member. The person that right now is saying "Hey, look, I know that legislation X/Politician Y/Terrorist group Z is evil, but what can I do?"

    He gets shown a bunch of stuff on an adventure with Rose (which I’ll go into below) and the result is a turn around for the character that by the end of the film is about to literally throw his life away in a vain effort to save what remains of the Republic. Without this subplot, that change wouldn’t happen, at least not in any believable way.

  2. It shows that the Star Wars galaxy is about more than the Empire vs the Republic. They go to a planet where the wealthy are gambling away while the First Order is destroying planets. It shows that this story is not about just the “good” vs the “bad”, it’s also about the people in the middle, it’s about the people caught in the cross fire, it’s about the people that don’t care either way because whoever wins or loses, they get paid anyway.

    Rose was there to communicate this to a naive Finn (remember, he literally knows nothing, he’s been brainwashed and trained as a Storm Trooper, he’s mostly a janitor) from a position of knowledge, because she had come from the very places where the wealthy of the galaxy would persecute and oppress them as either literal slaves or at least people with no choice but to be taken advantage of.

  3. It shows that sometimes being a hero is dumb. This ties in to your observation you’ve read here…

    "Rose. She gets her own paragraph. Everything I’ve read barring what I’ve read here has been a complaint about her. I’ve seen her called a “proper Mary Sue.” I’ve seen her called a complete waste of time. She says “don’t be a hero” but then she is the one who stays behind for the awesome light-speed Kamikaze?"

    Firstly a correction, Rose is not this person. You’re referencing a character called Admiral Holdo. She isn’t even remotely a Mary Sue, a term that is levelled at too many female characters for having entirely reasonable skill sets by guys that aren’t ready to accept that a woman on screen can be as good at stuff as they’d accept a man being cast in the same spot being.

    Specifically to the points made about Holdo though in this paragraph, she doesn’t say “don’t be a hero”, she says that what they need right now isn’t heroes. And she was right.

    Holdo was wise, she knew that what they needed to do was to wait it out until they got in range of Crait so that they could send their transport ships down undetected. The First Order would think that they’ve destroyed the “Resistance” and they’d be free to start building a new rebellion.

    Instead the “heroes” went and fucked it all up, by chance they brought someone along that could be bribed to give that secret up, and as a result many people died that didn’t need to. What they needed was faith in the leadership, not a hero.

    However, once the jig was up that game of cat and mouse was done. Once the First Order was destroying transport ships it was time for a hero, and Holdo stepped up and did something that is outrageous but completely effective in giving the remaining transports the time to land and a chance to survive.

  4. More to this point, it specifically shows that this movie, and future movies, may not always be about a plucky band of heroes just managing to save the day despite all odds. It’s saying that in this new set of films there is a reality that just because people are the main good guys of the show, it doesn’t mean they’re going to end up succeeding to some degree.

  5. It showed too that not every rogue is a hero waiting to happen. They come across their Code Breaker, he says he’ll do it for money, he takes Rose’s only memento of her sister… bastard! But… then he gives it back, maybe this is the heart of gold rogue we are looking for to save the day?!

    No, he’s a rogue, he goes to the highest bidder. He gets caught and is able to get himself into a position where he still gets paid and gets away. Our heroes say they’ll get him… he’s philosophical. “Maybe”. Again, a wise new character that doesn’t think so highly of himself as to think he’ll always be able to get away, but clearly one that knows how to handle getting out of sticky situations too.

    It also served as a great callback to the Cloud City plot where of course Lando double crossed his friend for similar reasons… except of course this time the rogue doesn’t help the heroes get away after a change of heart. It’s showing both a call back to the plot of ESB, while showing how this film (as it does in so many places) and thus this new set of movies is not going to just tread the same path.

  6. It is the main vehicle for providing for Poe Dameron’s own character development. He believes strongly in being a hero, he’s grown up on stories of the daring heroes of the Rebel Alliance. He doesn’t hesitate to jump in an XWing and just go to blow shit up because he thinks that it makes a difference. He goes with this plot to save the fleet, he understands that it’ll be stopped if it gets out and so keeps it all under wraps.

    But then disaster, it all goes so horribly wrong. Horribly.

    The result is that he has something of an epiphany as he and his fellow pilots are trying to stop the oncoming First Order from destroying the Crait base blast doors. He knows that they could go around trying to pull out a hail mary miracle, but with the weight of so many deaths on his own choices he does for the first time what a leader would do… accept the odds and call for a retreat. Again, in direct contradiction of previous films where the heroes are like “Don’t tell me the odds!” and just do what they feel like, Poe is learning that there is a time you can’t just be that person.

    It is through failure and mistakes, this mistake with the plot to get onto Snokes ship, that Poe learns what it means to be a leader, and it’s a character progression that will see us no doubt looking at a more mature, more sensible Poe Dameron in future films, as what is now one of the few surviving senior officers of the Resistance.

  7. It provides the evidence to what Yoda tells Luke when Luke goes to burn the Jedi books in the tree. Jedi masters haven’t taken enough time teaching mistakes and failures, and maybe that’s why the Jedi are where they are right now. And so too, mingled with this, we have a group of people that are riding high on the stories of successful heroes without perhaps considering the stories of unsuccessful heroes that both didn’t achieve their goal and are now dead because of it.

Back to Rose…

I think that in this film there is no such thing as a “love interest”. It’s clear that perhaps by the end she has feelings for Finn, but that’s the most that this film dives into with anyone. Love and soap opera is the last thing that this film deals in.

I feel people that complain about this haven’t seen the trend in other entertainment for this kind of bait and switch. Game of Thrones is obviously the most prominent example, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing that characters are being built up only to be purposefully killed “early” for dramatic effect. If there’s important stuff to know about Snoke later, then we’ll learn it. :stuck_out_tongue:


#74

I praise your passion for the film. It is rare I see anyone defend something with such fire. I would comment more, but I haven’t seen the film and you have.

This is actually a trope labeled as the “Worf effect.” A guy is played up to be super tough so that the upcoming person who beats him looks even more super tough. If you’re familiar with Dragon Ball, Vegeta is almost the poster child for this trope.

I cannot comment on Game of Thrones because I do not watch a lot of TV


#75

It’s weird, because I don’t know if I think that it was a great film, but I think as a story it was fantastic. It’s fantastic to see in a family friendly movie so much political commentary and philosophy. So when people’s criticism is about the story, about the “reasons” for things, or about the non-existent plot holes they’ve devised because they simply aren’t happy that there isn’t some spelled out reason for something to happen… ah it just makes me want to get stuck in :wink:


#76

I feel like a lot of things could’ve been avoided if Holdo just told Poe her plan. Then Finn and rose wouldn’t be going on that mission, and they wouldn’t get captured, and Holdo’s plan wouldn’t be revealed, and they wouldn’t have to run away from that salt planet cuz their base got broken into. What reason besides “I don’t want to be labeled as a hero, we don’t need those right now” leads to that decision of leaving everyone clueless? Seems selfish to me.


#77

Yeah! It was so cliche of her to save him, say that cheesy af line kiss him and “die”. It would have been so impactful and heroic if Finn sacrificed himself.


#78

Sure, but then we wouldn’t have a film :stuck_out_tongue:

I mean… basic and common military protocol? Putting aside the possibility that she wants to keep things as close to her chest because they don’t know if there might be a spy that has caused the ships to be able to track them, or because they are still formulating the plan… a normal military hierarchy would mean that someone like Poe should just do what they’re told.

She wouldn’t expect him to mutiny, she wouldn’t expect people to manage to get off ship and go and enact such a plan, she certainly wouldn’t expect the end result to be them bringing along someone who will sell the resistance out for some credits. So realistically she has no reason to tell anyone anything, because the likelihood of people going off and being that reckless to such ill effect should be as good as 0%.

I find it interesting though that elsewhere there has been this claim of selfishness or stupidity on the part of Holdo but not towards Poe who, if had told Holdo their plan, would potentially have been brought into the fold so that he could convince Finn and Rose that their gambit wasn’t necessary. Holdo has rank, has experience, and as we find out has the blessing of Leia… yet she is the one being called unreasonable and stupid for this failure?

In real life a US marine “Poe” who did this kind of thing would probably face court martial and get discharged.

He’d have flown in to a big cannon and died, and the rest of the movie would have carried on as is. The only impact would have been his squishy body against the metal of a mega-weapon. :stuck_out_tongue:


#79

Found the fanboy.


#80

Holy… I am too young to have even got this reference even if I found it chucklesome.

The “iron scene” may be a callback to this early parody of Star Wars: A New Hope