The Last Jedi [SPOILERS!]


#182

palpatiene this guy talks about it too.

its actually a good video that talks about lucas film theory… check it out!


#183

The thing is, they always want “balance” in the force, yes? But you cannot have that balance without having the dark side…so it is inevitable that some of the trained Jedi will join the dark side. Does that mean a jedi should give up and never train again? This is kinda the problem with them saying “balance” all the time…because that means there has to be evil along with the good…all the time.


#184

My question is…if he did feel this strongly about Luke’s character…why does he play the role I wonder? Was he still under some contractual obligation? Did they simply pay him more money, making him a sell-out? Actors have a decent amount of power in the industry…he could have refused the part or requested further back-story for Luke to flesh out what he felt was such a drastic change.


#185

I don’t know if I’m just remembering things wrongly now (I need to watch the movie again!) but I seem to remember that Luke wasn’t really absolute about the need to be light or dark. What was a concern with Ben Solo was just how much the dark side had taken hold, that he had been so corrupted under his watch.

I felt this film was one that started to dismantle the idea of this balance being some kind of absolute rule in the galaxy, but maybe that’s just my feeling.

He only signed on because both Ford and Fisher did, and didn’t want to be the one to let the fandom down. He had reservations from the beginning though.

He is on record now as being happy with the film, and that he regrets speaking out about creative differences (which he stated as being normal, but not normal to air them in public). Indeed he may have spoke out publicly in order to gain some kind of creative leverage but didn’t realise how much “fans” would misconstrue and misrepresent what he was saying into this conspiracy theory of him being forced to do a character he hated.


#186

Back in the day (not telling my age) It was a well known fact that once lucasfilm had you and your likeness there was really no escape. They could use the likeness whenever and however they wanted and it somehow extends into the cinematic universe…

plus… he is Luke and if he couldn’t pull it off I bet he no one could of and Hamill has many times shown how much personal investment he puts into his characters.

With Mark retracting his statements, that just sounds like lawyer backtracking to me.


#187

Also I don’t think money is a factor for Hamill in all of this, the royalties he’s made (and continues to make) from his likeness in the original trilogy is worth a ton of money. Not to say he wouldn’t be tempted by a big cash pay out now, but he doesn’t need it, and doesn’t immediately come across like the sort of person that does things because he wants to profit. See: his appearance in the Flash TV series to pay homage to his previous portrayal of a character. He strikes me as someone who has a lot of nostalgia and love for his characters.

I just think we should be careful with the conspiracy theories. If we don’t trust what someone who is fairly candid about his views on things he cares about, then we’re encroaching into the territory of trying to bend things to fit our perception of reality first and foremost, rather than accepting actual reality.


#188

Overall I did feel Hamil played his part very well.


#189

I may be seeing this again tomorrow and applying my critical thinking cap… Any suggestions on what to look out for and observe would be most appreciated…

p.s. I just remembered Darth Maul was severed in half and brough back via robotics. they could do the same for Snoke… (if they wanted)

Also, its not a conspiracy its more of just typical PR stuff and censoring information of people involved via contracts ect.


#190

Darth Maul survived because the Zabrak are a very resilient alien species.


#191

@Niaccurshi @SledgePainter

This is more of a personal feeling, but I feel that “balance” is a Jedi thing, not a Force thing.

Like the Jedi are always going on about balance, but the Sith never feel the need to keep things balanced. I think it falls into Jedi hubris. I think of the Force like nature, it could give a fuck less about Jedi and sith, but the Jedi religion has been preached and drilled so much that they’ve tricked themselves into believing that the rules they made up are fact.

Never really been into EU so maybe I’m talking out of my ass, but it’s how I’ve always seen it and why I’ve always chosen the Middle to Sith, rather than the Jedi/Light side.


#192

This has probably been posted-

But has anyone seens Matts input on this?

I can agree with much of what he said. Be warned, its a long’n haha


#193

I agree with parts and disagree with others, good video.


#194

I generally disagreed with his assessment, but he did open my eyes to the concerns of those who grew up as children with the original trilogy without all the other media to go along with it. I understand his point of view and can’t say he’s wrong… but only if you agree with the idea that the franchise is best served by not meddling with people’s personal beliefs in what characters would or wouldn’t do after Return of the Jedi.

I respect that some people, maybe Matt is one of them, would have preferred that if they had to mine the Star Wars universe that they did so entirely seperately of the “Skywalker” saga… I also wouldn’t disagree with that being a creative direction to take. However I don’t agree that everything is ruined by fleshing them out and exploring what happens next. I get what he was saying about Rogue One, I agree completely with his worries about “The Kessel Run” and the Han Solo movie, but I don’t think that magic is lost by looking in on Luke 30 years or so after he made peace with his Father and brought down the Emperor with him.

I feel that if you’re the sort of person that doesn’t want the fantasy tarnished, then don’t watch films that risk that happening. I’d say this about people (for example) that love books and go to see the on screen adaptation. If you can’t take that your own mental construct of this literary world is going to be almost certainly destroyed to make for an “official” visual version then don’t ruin things for yourself.

People came to Force Awakens perhaps with a lot of ideas about what the original three should have done with their lives, I feel that largely they got placated by Han’s character who wasn’t unfamiliar even if he had clearly changed. People then went from that, loving or hating the homage it paid to New Hope, and further constructed their own idea of what The Last Jedi should be.

Those people should stop watching movies, to be frank and overly harsh. Movies are a one-way system and don’t care for your imagination (largely, some films break the mold, most don’t), so if you’re the sort of person who is going to get invested in trying to discerne the “correct” route forward between films ina series, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. Worse, with Star Wars fans that do this, you’re bringing the rest of the fandom down with you.

Going back to Matt’s video, he infers or says that the movie doesn’t withstand the refrigerator test, and maybe this is a sign of how marmite the film is, but I feel the film only grows and improves the more you think about it. I came out of the film much less whelmed than I am about it now having had time to really digest it.

Matt’s spot on about Kylo Ren though, even if I feel he is an equal level of wrong about Finn. :slight_smile:


#195

I agree. The whole “Balance” thing, and the Jedi seeking it, is to me a reflecting on Lucas’ politics around the Vietnam war. It’s literally about being a hippy, but with power. Imagine being a hippy but also having the ability (and will) to destroy evil if you need to? I think that’s the fantasy Lucas is portraying in his original trilogy.

As such I don’t think that the “dark side” comes in to balance. The “dark side” is chaos, it is entropy (ironically, presented as authoritarian but in terms of its effect on the “balance” of the force, it is a disruptor). So Regardless of how a Jedi would feel about being “pure” to light or dark side or not, I don’t know that anyone in the star wars universe that sees themselves as a Jedi, rather than a Sith, would say that having the dark side take hold of someone is part of the overall balance.


#196

Interesting video


#197

I dunno…I rather liked the notion of the Jedi Order suppressing their emotions, even though I personally don’t side with some of their decisions. They are a religious sect after all, only meant for certain individuals, and the children begin training very young, normally, making it normal for them. Look at the intense training and amazing control of Buddhist monks. How often do you see people in the real world having their emotions guide them instead of their brains…and how well does that turn out? I guess you can make a case for it being unhealthy to not have attachments, but something can also be said for the opposite, to create stronger people. There have been many times wish I could let go of my own attachments which have caused me great grief in my life.


#198

They’re one and the same. The “heart” in this context is imaginative.


#199

It happens more than you might think. Plus, Qui-Gon achieved being a Force Ghost because he let love consume him in a Jedi era where love was forbidden. This is something Yoda had to go to exile and live up to 800 to figure out.

So it’s not a question of the presence or not. You NEED emotion. The question is, HOW MUCH of an emotion.


#200

This thread is an outstanding analysis for those that think Luke’s character was wrong (in the sense it’s written down well, not that it’s a particularly mind-blowing take)


#201

The dude’s on fire.