The issue with Val, the Golath, and what needs to be changed/fixed for viability


#1

I’m going to start with saying that I play Evolve on the PC, and have very little competitive experience but have gotten a glimpse of playing in it.

If you look at competitive teams… it seems to follow this trend:

:medic: Caira
:support: Hank (Sometimes Cabot…)
:trapper: Any…
:assault: Markov (sometimes Hyde…)

Just from what I listed above, you can see that only one class role has every Hunter (T1-T3) viable. With the medic role being Caira only. I’m going to cover why Hunters like Val, Lazarus, Bucket, and Parnell are useless against…

[size=20]Top-Tier Monsters.[/size]

I’m going to go through the Monsters here and list facts/opinions on them.

I would say that, Goliath is probably the most balanced and skill-required Monster to date to play efficiently against top-tier Hunter teams. He has the most traversal abilities in the game allowing him to keep on his targets when he needs to, or escape quickly be chaining them with his traversals. However, with all this… I can safely say that my team(s) would stand a chance against the Monster as long as we played well. No matter how great of a player the person is, though this might be because I haven’t fought a really great Goliath.

Goliath has many problems. Probably the biggest ones are related to his glitchiness and bugs. More than half of his abilities have potential to do zero damage due to registration/coding problems. His Leap Smash can occasionally land and do no damage, or you don’t even more even though you aren’t restrained. His Rock Throw can hit Hunters on his screen (and theirs) and do no damage. His Charge can also slide along a Hunter doing nothing. That’s a lot of bugginess. Then finally… his traversal is very buggy. Many times I have tried to leap and it seemed like I stubbed my toe and decided to trip. Letting me cover no ground at all.

Moving past his glitchiness, let’s look at his combat prowess. First off, only one of his abilities are consistently unavoidable. Fire Breath, an ability that does damage over time and isn’t cancellable (Like it used to be…) or interrupts pick ups. All other abilities are, even at point-blank, avoidable. Rock throw even at point blank can be avoided through a team mate eating the rock (great coordination and micromanagement). Leap Smash takes really long to finish and the Hunter can double-tap space to fly up. Charge is the same deal.

The only way to effectively deal damage as the Goliath, is to chain abilities and attacks. Pouncing a Hunter, followed with being cleared and swinging for a double-overhead to cause them to lose temporary control and follow up with a Leap Smash, then following up with a Rock, almost always guarantees both abilities landing even with the Hunter having a lot of fuel. When it doesn’t land though… you’re in for a world of hurt.

So through all this… Goliath only has one ability that is consistently unavoidable, and it’s a damage over time that does no burst damage. His long list of bugs, close-ranged, little air-control (All the other Monsters have better air-control), and melee only. Not to mention that all forms of CC work as designed against him and aren’t inconsistent. All this makes Goliath a very difficult choice to pick as the Monster against top-tier players.

The Kraken is a very powerful monster. Seen in almost every serious match up, and requires very little skill to pull off to be as good as Kraken as it does to be Goliath/Wraith. He has the most damaging abilities, and all of his masteries (not used in tournaments) increase the damage of his abilities. Most of his abilities are ranged, allowing him to keep away and put himself into combat easily for traversals both very easily.

He has a few bugs that are related to Goliaths, but they are easy to avoid. Kraken’s traversals will, sometimes, be used twice in a single jump. This can be avoided by landing before you use your next traversal. The next one is he’ll moon-launch himself. Floating into the air quickly and finally coming back down, very similar to Goliath’s collision/flying/air-jordan bug. All of his abilities though, land consistently.

Now let’s take a look at Kraken’s combat prowess. First off… his main source of damage is Lightning Strike. At 3 points into this sucker… it’s radius and damage is huge not to mention easy to aim. Against a good Kraken… dodging this sucker is more of an error on the Monster’s side rather than your own skill. If the Kraken doesn’t fuck up, he won’t miss it plain and simple. His primary source of damage also isn’t blockable, like Goliath’s rock throw is. Kraken also has a multitude of ways to cause your character to stumble/push you around.

His Vortex is very large, travels quickly, and is pretty much unavoidable. Not to mention this thing still knocks you back incredibly far.

His Banshee Mines can travel very quickly and if aimed directly at a Hunter, will not slow down to begin chasing until it’s too close that your character will almost always be stumbling/pushing you around. Making it even harder to chase down the Kraken along with Vortex.

His Aftershock is easily avoidable, even with 3 points into it.

Last but not least… he has ridiculous melee range. He can knock Hunters back and still be in range to swing again without using any traversals. His pounce also feels like it has the longest pounce of all the Monsters. Then, the most important thing… is his range auto-attacks can interrupt picks up! What the bloody hell! Top it all off, crowd controls are inconsistently working on him!

To sum everything up. Kraken only has one ability that is avoidable. All other abilities are unavoidable against a skilled Kraken. He has a high amount of damage, primarily ranged, large reaching melee attacks, range auto-attacks that interrupt pick ups, and very easily traverse across terrain. His ability to stay in the air makes him very difficult to damage by all of the Assaults. All this… makes Kraken the easiet and strongest choice for any Monster player to use up against a skilled Hunter team. A skilled Hunter team will need to play on such an incredible level to beat a Kraken playing at the top of his game that it leaves very little room for newer players to ever get a chance in the competitive scene.

No thorough analysis yet… but his Warp Blast is quite OP right now though and his Decoy is useless in face2face combat.


Summary…

Kraken is incredibly strong. While he does have less health than Goliath, Kraken simply has too many crowd-control mechanics and flying to make up more effective health than the other Monsters. Goliath is incredibly buggy and inconsistent, and does less burst damage than Kraken. Not to mention Goliath has 3/4 of his abilities avoidable while Kraken has 3/4 of his abilities unavoidable.

What needs to change…

First off, Lightning Strike needs to be avoidable. If I have a full (or half-full Jetpack) and time my dodge right… I should be able to dodge this ability. Similar to how I should be able to dodge Rock Throw, Charge, Leap Smash. Next, Vortex needs to knock back significantly less, and maybe I would go as far as saying that Vortex does less damage the closer the target is, but knock back farther/faster. Nothing huge, but still noticeable, and it wouldn’t affect Vortex’s damage at moderate (+15m?) range. His Banshee Mines need to have a cooldown on stumbling a character, something small, just enough to keep a wave of Banshees from juggling a Hunter around enough that the Kraken can come down to beat them up. Also make them activate much farther from the Hunters when thrown.

Next, he needs to move significantly slower after meleeing someone. Not have a ludicrous reach. His ranged auto-attacks should not interrupt pick ups unless the kraken is within a certain range. Lastly… fix his damn anti-crowd control.

Some of this would bring Kraken in line as a balanced Monster to fight against. Let’s move on to Goliath…

First. He needs a lot of his bugs fixed. He is just too damn glitchy and inconsistent to work with. Missing a vital Rock Throw, Leap Smash, or Charge simply because the game code says no even though it’s all visable is just infuriating and match-breaking. His Leap Smash needs to finish faster. His Fire Breath needs to be interruptable again like it was in the Big Alpha, and possibly increase the hitbox again so it’s easier to hit like the Big Alpha. Leave the damage as is. Increase the speed of his double over-head to prevent Hunters from slowly (holding space) ascending out of his melee range. If they want to get out of the way of the Monster… they should have to double-space bar.

Just those things alone could probably bring up Goliath as a viable and trustworthy monster.


Now… for the Hunters.

It’s getting pretty late and I’m going to type this next part pretty rushed. I’m going to state that I love playing Val, and play her pretty damn well. Played her since the Big Alpha.

size=18The Unviable Hunters…[/size]
Not picking Hank… you make things very difficult for your team. Especially if they go Kraken. With the multitude of unavoidable damage, you significantly lower your survivability as a Hunter team. Having Hank simply creates a chain the Monster needs to go through to start getting the team Down. Support > Medic > Ect. Trying to go outside the chain is difficult and requires mispositioning the Hunters.

A good offense it also a good defense… Cabot used to have the ability to punish a Kraken very well, but his primary damage received a nerf and it’s now harder to pull off the same damage as before.

Bucket simply doesn’t do enough damage to be a good offense like Cabot, even with Cabot’s nerf.

Val and Lazarus’ healing, team healing, and self-healing are just not there. All of which are on Caira who can out-heal, out-team heal, and self-heal significantly better than. Val has a multitude of debuffs but those mean little against huge amount of incoming damage since Kraken (which is primarily played) is almost always away from the Assault. Also, none of the Assaults have primaries that can easily use the amp shots (Pierced armor) that Val puts out. Parnell and Torvald have shotguns, both of which don’t work too well when the Kraken is in the air. Lazarus is just easy to predict.

Parnell has a difficult time staying on a good Monster. Kraken using Vortex simply just wastes his entire super-soldier.


What needs to change…

If we want to make :medic:Val viable… we need to change some things. First off, we need to either make her incredibly offensive or give her some survivability with healing or a mix of both. The problems are easy to fix. We could increase the reload speed of the Armor-Piercing Sniper Rifle. Even when everyone is avoiding almost everything and I’m keeping up minor healing and tranq duration I still get an avg of 3-4 amp shots. Max of 5. The new average should be 8 with a maximum of 10. This would push her to be a more offensive/debuff hunter. We could make her heal more with her medgun but also give her some way to consistently heal herself so that the Rock Throw I ate 1 minute ago isn’t still affecting me right now. Caira/Lazarus’ self healing don’t give a fuck about no Rock Throw they ate 1 minute ago.


[size=20]The list of summary…[/size]
I’m sleepy now so…

Val’s healing is insignificant with the large amount of unavoidable damage on Kraken. Even against a Goliath, a single Rock Throw landing means you’ll never get someone’s health back to full. Her debuffs aren’t enough to impact a very agile Monster that is keeping her on her toes. Either her debuffs need to make an impact, or her healing needs to make an impact. Either way, she needs some damn self-healing.

Hank’s shielding is too much of a requirement against great Monsters. Krakens with easy unavoidable damage, or Goliaths with skilled unavoidable damage. Yes, you can go Cabot and try being super offensive… but there is a lot of risk and one screw up with or without Hank is enough to wipe you. Simply with Hank you have a bigger room for that screw up and could possibly recover. Bucket does too little damage to be and be offensive.

Goliath is too buggy/weak, and Kraken is too strong. Goliath needs to be fixed, made quicker. Kraken needs to be more skill-based and easier to control.


Suggestions to TRS for Val
#2

That’s being patched soon, as per MacMan.


#3

Pretty much agree with everything.

Wraith’s Warp Blast radius has gotten so big that it requires no skill to land because it’s so ridiculously generous.


#4

What platform are you on? I’d like to prove what a good Goliath can do :smiley:


#5

Lol… I don’t even


#6

Either that or implement a visual showing the range. Noone knows exactly where the Warp Blast ends so most people get hit. 3 point Warp Blast will get you 70% of the time. 1 point Warp blast doesn’t even come close to being an offensive skill.


#7

Whatever, O.P. is absolutely right about everything he said…


#8

I beg to differ.

Wasn’t this already worked on patch 1.2?

this would be welcome.

the secondaries are severely underrated.

Did noticed LS aims significantly faster on consoles? Like really f****king scary fast. Watch some videos yo…

This is what I want the most from the wraith right now, that and her combat traversal back.


#9

I don’t really like how Kraken at the moment is pretty much immune to all CC. Only griffin is able to do something, but the Kraken can easily be facing Griffin when the dome is going to be used and use traversals backwards whilst breaking the chain with his basic attack. Maggie Harpoons are worthless, Griffin in a fight is pretty bad. Abe’s stasis grenades are no longer good. Crow’s is okay, but mainly because the slow lasts for 8(+?) seconds so it isn’t a huge waste if nothing comes of it. Allowing the Kraken to always be airborne is why Kraken is doing so well. It’s extremely hard for an assault to get close to a flying monster that can evade CC and dish out a lot of CC.


#10

kraken would be way more balanced if he actual had to land sometimes.

then u can pretty easly punish him but right now when a kraken doesnt want to be on the ground then hes not gonne be there.

which makes him way way way more tankier then he should be


#11

You aren’t allowed to heavy attack if you don’t land. Once Lightning Strike is fixed a lot of his burst will be obtained by landing heavy attacks.


#12

You say you can have a teammate eat a rock, but half the time the ridiculous AOE on that thing is still gonna clip you for a nice chunk of damage as well, especially since if that boulder is in a hit chain it’s going to be shotgunned.


#13

Lightning Strike is incredibly easy to avoid as long as you are paying attention. Only thing I agree with is the anti crowd control otherwise thst just stuff you need to work on


#14

wowow wait for a sec.

rank 3 lightning strike vs a rly good kraken INCREDIBLE easy to dodge? it is possible to dodge if u can los behind a mountain or something.


#15

I have gotten into the habit of trying to dodge behind objects/mountains/caves/trees, ect. It works… for Vortex. Lightning Strike can go inside caves, behind objects, mountains, caves, and trees. I don’t know how many times I’ve used 2 Jetpack bursts to dodge at near the last second to hide behind something tall only for him to still track me perfectly fine.

Play against some good Krakens on the PC and it’s just a joke how hard it is to dodge Lightning Strike. Mouse control with proper sensitivity makes that Lightning Strike movement the speed of a Racecar sometimes.

It’s better than taking the whole Rock. If your healer is being focused and trying to self heal, would you rather them take the whole rock or just part of the rock? Taking hits for a team mate that needs healing is a proper strategy. In fact, one group I was playing with told their Assault to sometimes hug a Goliath to peel the monster off someone, since it’ll make the Goliath swing backwards, losing momentum towards its primary target.


#16

Wait til the last second and jetpack burst I’ve never had any issue with it


#17

@Colin_Swan
Then you must be under the following…:

  • Incredibly lucky
  • Facing bad Krakens
  • Not on the PC
  • Dodging level 1 Lightning Strikes

#18

Or people are just bad and can’t admit it?


#19

“Trapper=Any”
…Ya, no. I’m not trying to be an ass, but based on your intense (and pretty well thought out) scrutiny of the other classes I’m guessing you just don’t play trapper very much. Just fwi, on the competitive level Maggie is used overwhelmingly more than anyone else. A tournament-level team is going to be shooting for consistency, which Maggie provides. Grif and Abe, while great once you’ve found the monster, are just too inconsistent in the early game to be considered a viable option for a torni.


#20

I’m sorry, but you’re mistaken. All three trappers are viable and picked at the competitive level.
Is Maggie picked more? Sure. But not that much more than Griffin. Abe is a bit rarer but that doesn’t mean he isn’t present.
It’s going to depend on the team, as well. Some teams will prefer what Griffin or Abe provide to Daisy.