Some concrete buffs to our favorite or 2nd favorite Robot (Bucket)


#1

Even though not too bad in the overall telemetry, Bucket is weak in high level play. In the following some concrete efforts to fix this.

#TL;DR:

Guided Missile Launcher

  • Damage per Missile: + 17.65%
  • Reload Time: - 10.71%
  • Fire Rate: + 50.00%

UAV

  • Flight Speed: Up to 15 meters per second
  • Lifetime: +11.11%
  • Marked Duration: +16.67%
  • Marking Duration: - 48.57%
  • Mastery change from Lifetime to Marked Duration

Sentry Guns

  • Bullet Spread: - 37.50% // -33.33%
  • Damage per Shot: - 22.22%
  • Disengage Range: + 16.67%
  • Health: + 53.85%
  • Toss Range: + 42.86%
  • Activation Time: - 50.00%
  • Mastery change from Range to Accuracy

##Guided Missile Launcher

  • Damage per Missile: 85 (gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Reload Time: 2.8 seconds
  • Fire Rate: 80 Missiles per Minute
  • Capacity: 5 Missiles
  • Missile Speed: 35
  • Missile Turn Speed: 8
  • Detonation Radius: Unknown
  • Unaffected by body modifiers
  • Effective Damage per Second: 65 / 71 with mastery

This is most definetly too low. For comparison: Cabot with 100% bodyshots deals 121/ 133 damage per second. Applying a 10% Head/ 40% Limb/ 50% Body hit ratio, he ends up with 115/ 127.
Cabot and Bucket fulfill similar roles as they both provide additional tracking and chase of mosters by dealing massive damage.
Clearly there needs to be something done. Aiming for 100 per second (which is still low, but about a 50% buff overall plus missiles are easier to land), I suggest the following changes:

  • Damage per Missile: 100 (from 85)
  • Reload Time: 2.5 seconds (from 2.8)
  • Fire Rate: 120 Missiles per Minute (from 80)
  • Effective Damage per Second: 100 (from 65)/ 110 with mastery (from 71)

##UAV

  • Cooldown Time: 20 second
  • Marked Duration: 30 second
  • Marking Duration: 3.5 seconds
  • Lifetime: 54 seconds (gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Cast Time: 1 second
  • Damage on Destruction: 100
  • Flight Speed: Unknown

Generally speaking, this is a weak tool. Abe’s Tracking Dart has a longer duration, is easier to apply, and does not leave the body miles behind. I think the most valuable part of it would be mobility and higher speed, where I did not find any raw data to modifiy.

  • Flight Speed: 15 meters per second (from ?)
  • Life Time: 60 seconds (from 54, no longer gets mastery bonus)
  • Marked Duration: 35 (from 30, now gets mastery bonus)
  • Marking Duration: 1.8 seconds (from 3.5)

The marked duration now is the same as Abe’s, also the Marking duration is now as long as it takes to fire 6 tracking darts. The flight speed should be high, I chose 15 meters per second so that the UAV is twice as fast as running Monster and as fast a Behemoth in full roll, furthermore almost 3 times as fast as Bucket himself. The Lifetime should stay about the same without mastery.

##Sentry Guns

Deploying:

  • Deploy Rate: 60 sentries per minute
  • Cooldown: 0.98 seconds
  • Cooldown Delay: 1 second
  • Toss Range: 7 meters
  • Activation Time: 4 seconds

Active

  • Fire rate: 300 shots per minute
  • Engage Range: 30 meters (gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Disengage Range: 30 meters (gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Damage per Shot: 18
  • Hit Points: 130
  • Maximum Shots: 500
  • Horizontal Bullet Spread: 15
  • Vertical Bullet Spread: 16
  • Effective Damage per second: 90

Buckets main tool. Since there can only be 3 of them, they are considered close to useless. But 3 times 90 damage per second does not look that bad, does it? Now, the obvious problem is the accuracy. The 90 damage per second just does not connect. Looking at Assault weapons, Lennox’ Autocannon has the same fire rate, but only a maximum bullet spread of 6 and a dps of 225 (not including reload). Considering that Bucket also fires his GML at the same time (which is buffed above), the DPS overall should not be that high. It should be rather consistent within the 30 meter radius. Lennox can use her AC from further, it thus makes sense, that the turrets are not as accurate.

  • Bullet Spread: 10 (from 15/16 and now gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Damage per Shot: 14 (from 18)
  • Engage Range: 30 (no longer gets mastery bonus)
  • Disengage Range: 35 (from 30, no longer gets mastery bonus)
  • Health: 200 (from 130)
  • Effective Damage per second: 70

The accuracy is now significantly higher, assuming Lennox uses the AC up to 50 meters and has a spread of 6, 10 seems to be reasonable for a range of 30 meters. Also with the mastery it should get down to 9. With a significantly higher accuracy, the damage cant stay the same. 210 Maximum for all 3 turrets seems ok in comparison to Lennox’s 225, considering that more damage would come from his GML. The health is increased to a point, where it can survive 1/3 of a firebreath and 1 burn dot. The next burn dot will kill it though. A heavy will always take it out. Behemoth’s roll needs damage bonus to kill it with 1 strike.

  • Toss Range: 10 meters (from 7)
  • Activation Time: 2 seconds (from 4)

It was sad to see, that directly after his 5.0 buff, the toss range was decreased to an even lower point than before. Then 2 turrets were cut out with little in return. Honestly, 10 meters just felt way better. As for the activation time, I took the same amount that Emet has for his buoys. I think both are supposed to be used in a similar way: Somebody is focused over there? Deloy this item close to him for help. It is a somewhat reactionary deployable. But where Emet works fine like that, Bucket does not. This should bring a lot more dynamic into putting down turrets.

Edit: Alternative
The suggestion above might lead to spamming of hard-to-kill turrets, which is not really pleasant. Something else that might work even better:

  • Maximum Shots: 60 (from 500)
  • Cooldown: 3 seconds (from 0.98)
  • Damage per Shot: 15 (frrom 18)
  • Bullet Spread: 10 (from 15/16 and now gets 10% mastery bonus)
  • Engage Range: 30 (no longer gets mastery bonus)
  • Disengage Range: 35 (from 30, no longer gets mastery bonus)
  • Health: 200 (from 130)
  • Toss Range: 10 meters (from 7)
  • Activation Time: 2 seconds (from 4)

This would for once decrease Turret spamming and encourage switching to the GML. Secondly it forces the Bucket player to take action and replace the turrets more often because the would run out of ammo after 12 seconds. Compare this to Hyde’s Toxic Cloud which expires after 6 seconds. Combined with the updated GML, this allows for a cycle of Sentry Gun and GML, where after the 3rd round the first Sentry Gun would expire and need to be replaced.
Let me explain the cycle (0.75s was taken as the weapon switch time):

00.00s - 1st Sentry starts to deploy
01.00s - 1st Sentry is deployed/ Switch to GML
01.75s - GML starts firing
03.00s - 1st Sentry starts firing
04.25s - GML empty/ Switch to Sentry
05.00s - 2nd Sentry starts to deploy
06.00s - 2nd Sentry is deployed/ Switch to GML
06.75s - GML starts firing
08.00s - 2nd Sentry starts firing
09.25s - GML empty/ Switch to Sentry
10.00s - 3rd Sentry starts to deploy
11.00s - 3rd Sentry is deployed/ Switch to GML
11.75s - GML starts firing
13.00s - 3rd Sentry starts firing
14.25s - GML empty/ Switch to Sentry
15.00s - 1st Sentry is empty and gets replaced (cycle starts again but with 2 sentries on the field)

Overall, 3 Sentries would fire for 2 seconds at once, 2 Sentries over 3 seconds. Because 3 sentries firing at once would be less frequent, it allows for it to be more deadly than before. I suggested 15 per shot because this would make 2 Sentries provide approimatly the same area of denial power as a Toxic Cloud.

##Expected Balance
I think that his good performence in telemetry comes from inexperienced Monsters ingnoring his turrets and fighting close to them. At close range the turrets would deal a lot less damage now, but this would be coverd by both other buffs to the sentries and a 50% stronger GML. Bucket currently has a problem to deny an area with damage because the turrets dont get to fire before 4 seconds. This would be cut in half and allow them to be more reactionary, just as Healing Buoys. Regarding his UAV, I think right now, using it is almost worse than ignoring it in most cases. The suggestion might change this, but I dont think it will remove it completely.
Overall I expect his performence to be much more consistent over the different skill levels.


Let's Figure Out How to Fix Bucket
#2

I just added some TL;DR for the lazy people :wink:


#3

I think, overall, these changes are just a little too drastic. I like the spread/damage/range changes to the sentries, I don’t think the activation or health is a positive change considering that (as you say) he’s sitting fine in telemetry terms which suggests a general usefulness at lower level play.

Looking at it in those terms I don’t see a balanced trade off between the spread and damage to be a change that is all that bad (as lower tier monsters will be in amongst the sentries more than away from them). However decreasing activation and increasing health ends up disproportionately aiding Buckets at the lower end. I’d be happy enough ignoring the health/toss/activation while trying the other sentry changes and going from there!

GML I don’t actually see as needing any change at all, you say quite rightly that he’s damaging less than people like Cabot, but at the same time (also as you say) the sentries should be doing work too. See above for discussion re: lower vs higher tier play, this is another change IMO that would buff bucket at the wrong end of play.

UAV on the other hand, I’d be happy with it being a bit quicker/more responsive. I don’t feel that the time it takes to tag or the time it tags for is particularly bad. Again, lower tier buckets appear to be better than their monster counter parts, and higher tier buckets rarely need to use UAV in situations where these changes mean all that much.

So, definitely yep to giving the sentries more consistent lower damage and giving bucket some better battlefield control, but for me it’s a nope to buffing his other abilities for now.


#4

Don’t increase sentry gun dmg (think it’s fine ) - guide Missles are good

buff the uav and

Buff the health for sentry gun


#5

I mean Bucket and offensive comps deserve their time to shine, but this might be a tad too much.

GML buffs are a LOT. And not needed. I get around 12k with them per game. Sentries however are just to weak. The only buff bucket needs is a 200% accuracy increase to turrets.

However, the arming time had always been painstakingly long compared to the time it takes a monster to take out a turret. 2 seconds would be awesome. Also, I have no idea why they nerfed throw range and I’d like that back.

UAV doesn’t really need a duration buff, it’s fine where it is, but the fact that it leaves you so far behind is awful. The only way we can counter act this without AI aid is to decrease how long it takes to tag the monster.
So the movespeed buffs are very welcome and honestly why not decrease the lock on time needed while we’re at it.

But yeah, Bucket, and Cabot, need buffs.


Cabot balance discussion
#6

Interesting. I had that put as helping him on the higher end because there are 2 things that make him weak there: The monsters keep their distance, if not they quickly kill the sentries.I imagine that less experienced Monsters just ignore it, so health does not affect them. The 4 seconds of activation time give the experienced Monster much time to destroy it before it even fires. Imagine a body camp situation and Bucket wants to react. Well, he cant relly because it takes too long for the Sentry to start doing damage.

But I admit, the toss range is just a quality of life change for me :slightly_smiling:

I disagree again for the following reason. I think that a high level Monster destroys and evades the turrets better. This cuts out a lot of Buckets damage. But you know what is really hard to avoid? The GML. When the damage comes proportionally more from the GML, I think higher levels benefit more, not to mention they can aim better and land more missiles.

I would argue even further: They should not use the UAV because they loose too much ground while doing so. The UAV provides close to no advantage over a Bucket that stays behind the Monster and pings it. Playing Bucket myself, I noticed that marking a Warping Wraith can be very difficult and take too long, if it does not just destroy it in the long time. This is why I want that to be shorter. The duration increase is just to add some more value and to tie it with the tracking dart. But honestly, even after these changes, I think the UAV would still be bad.


#7

Side thought:

Id be curious to see how bucket would play with “exploding” bullets (much like the finger-bullets of Emet), to normalize his damage a bit.


#8

Yes, which is why first the tagging duration is shorter, the tagged duration is longer so that you dont have to refresh it so often, and the Speed is higher to catch up with the monster faster.
I think buffing these 3 variables might provide the UAV with some usefulness at some point.

Another time :wink:


#9

Adaptation maybe? I would also like to see them explode and do some damage when they are destroyed.


#10

I really hope he gets some love in the next patch cause he’s so much fun to use but he honestly has nothing to help keep hunters get out of tight spaces. The UAV was a waste of utility for him, IMO. That was more fit for trapper.


#11

4 posts were split to a new topic: Cabot balance discussion


#12

Buckets guided missle launcher is good but his sentrys are awful, and that’s suppose to be his thing. His sentrys need to be putting out more damage somehow, whether it’s a range, accuracy, or damage buff.

Also his UAV is worthless if you know what your doing. The only time it may be useful is if your waiting at the relay for a stage 3 fight.


#13

His GML is fine imo, but his sentries are so lame now because of the capacity nerf. It was necessary, but they need to bring him back. He was fun after the last buff but then he got nerfed to being useless again.

Also, slim needs to be playable again. He’s so much fun.


#14

Honestly I never found the damage that 5 sentries could kick out to be “op”. It took a long time to set up, and that damage potential is what FINALLY started to make bucket viable at a higher tier of play.

But i do agree fighting 5 of them was “too much”. There was littler “counter play” you could do to a bucket who had the time to set up 5. Spending abilities to wipe down his damage is nice, until you start to consider theres 4 other hunters you need to hit with those abilities, who might or might not be bringing in deployables of their own.

So this damage was necessary, but having 5 was too many. The compensation he was given for the loss in deployables, doesnt compensate for the loss in potential damage.

I still firmly believe his damage should be buffed so that 3 sentries does the damage that 4 sentries used to- or maybe even what 5 used to, using his rocket launcher to compensate if this proves to be too much damage with his whole kit. Dropping down sentries was “buckets thing”. I think it should be the focus of his play


Cabot balance discussion
#15

Buff the damage of Bucket’s sentries and he will be too powerfull at low lvl. Buff there health and they are still lagging in burst. Buff there accuracy and Bucket get’s a low-skill char, without any risk for reword.
I want some variation in accuracy. Sentries don’t shoot at sneaking, non-pounsing monster that don’t get hit. Sentries got bad accuracy of something else than Buckets launcher hits the monster. They shoot with good accuracy if Bucket hits with his launcher or tags the monster.
Just an idea of someone who prefers playing Bucket.


Cabot balance discussion
#16

Honestly.

Thatd be perfectly fine with me.

Another thing I strongly believe is that evolve needs to stop catering so hard to “overall” play. Buffing characters that were already strong because they have a high skill ceiling and cant be used “easily” by casual players- Is bad. It throws off high level play to amazing degrees. Likewise nerfing weak characters, because low level players do well with them, also throws off high level play to amazing degrees.

Characters dont NEED this fictitious 50/50 overall telemetry. Theres a lot of BAD players influencing those numbers, and letting them influence the numbers throws off the actual balance. Balancing things around bad play isnt balance, its a handicap.


#17

It’d be kind of cool if his uav actively pinged the monster boosted the damage capabilities of his sentries. Maybe make them swarm in set distances around the monster and firing off? Or adding increased range/mini GML rockets to track?

Kind of a shot in the dark but i do wish Bucket would get some well deserved love. :bucket_cute: :heart:


#19

The only thing about his GML is that they need to fly faster. But his sentries are just underwhelming.


#20

Meanwhile, before abandoning the potential to balance for all, we can see attempts to do so :wink:

Bad monsters find themselves over committing in amongst sentries and not keeping up with a bucket that is continually replacing them.

Good monsters avoid the damage of bucket by keeping out of range, in a game where if the monster wants to just not fight and hide that’s actually the best thing for it, and use abilities to get rid of the sentries from a decent range before committing to any close range action.

The simple answer is to buff damage and buff health of the sentries, but anyone with common sense can see that in doing so this would cause even worse problems for the lower level monster.

Are there things that can be changed that don’t affect the lower level monsters but do help against better ones?

Yes, as has been said… better range, better ability to distribute, better accuracy. A monster over committing and failing to destroy sentries is not going to be much further disadvantaged by the sentries being more accurate, or being more rangey… but it will against those wraith and kraken players that know what they’re doing.

So yes, I don’t think that the idea of a 50/50 balance at all levels should be the absolute end aim, but at the same point there’s no reason that we can’t see paths that achieve it either. Bucket genuinely doesn’t need a direct damage buff, his sentries just need to be more reliable against the array of monsters that, picked by people who are good at monster, tend to move out of combat more than they move in.


#21

Yep, I completely agree with this. Plus, if they buff their health, then monsters would have to focus on the sentries a lot more instead of the hunters and that’s something TRS doesn’t want, I think.