Sneak Pounce adds nothing positive to the game, and is particularly frustrating for Pug teams


#1

Sneak Pounce is mostly useful for hunting wildlife without breaking sneak and leaving tracks and killing single targets quickly without a chance for them to respond.

The first function is somewhat pointless, as experienced trackers will recognize the remains of the meal as an indicator like tracks.

The second is mostly just punishing against lone Hunters, usually a product of a pug team where players are often not organized enough to do a pair off split.


I do not take issue with the Monster being able to kill a single Hunter quickly - this is easily possible at any stage without the pounce - but the mechanic currently adds on to the frustration for playing in pugs, particularly for newer players.

Against coordinated teams it does not seem to add much other than more reason to pair off when splitting up, but I doubt everyone scattering in different directions would be optimal anyway due to how long it could take the team to reform.

And while it would usually make no difference in outcome, a last stand by the last living Hunter is more interesting than waiting through a sneak pounce for both sides.


Annoying monster pounce mechanic
Monster pouncing mechanic needs to be altered
Pouncing Problems
#2

Instead of removing the pounce, we could instead make it impossible to pounce if you take damage at all before it begins. So the last Hunter could just shoot the monster once with anything and it’d be on cooldown. Or, you could make it impossible to pounce during combat, which may be a nice idea. So you can still pounce wildife and all, and you can punish a lone hunter, but if they see you and shoot, you can’t. Fair, in my opinion.

We have increased stamina regen in combat, so it is possible.


#3

That would seem to make it impossible to pounce in combat, which I would be okay with.

In my experience Hunters rarely get pounced without having shot the Monster soon before.


#4

Yes, I’ve noticed that too. Still happens sometimes, though I’m not sure how.

You really shouldn’t be allowed to pounce in combat, anyway. It’s only going to get you killed and annoy everyone.


#5

Seems fairly accurate against coordinated teams.

I’m not a fan of things that seem to needlessly and very disproportionately punish pugs.


#7

As somebody who pugs a LOT, I can say that this isn’t the case. If you’re al good players, you know to stick together.

Pounce punishes bad pugs, and that is fine.


#8

While removing combat pounce wouldn’t change this scenario often, it always feels lame compared to the epic last stand that could be.


@MidnightMonash

Sticking together is easy, getting people to both pair off properly to search in pairs and for someone to follow you if you are leading is harder.

Mechanics that only punish lower level play, or non-team play, should be removed.


#9

I’ve stated this before on pounce threads. The pounce is not the problem. If your group splits off and as the monster you find someone running around solo it is to your benefit to pounce them rather than use abilities and melee attacks. They deserve it for running around solo. That’s why it’s built into the game when the monster takes damage after a pounce they immediately release their victim.

There does need to be a CD on it though, believe that is coming in a future patch. Pounce spamming needs to stop…


#10

You say that you and your team are laughing because you are under the impression that you have a guaranteed win. And instead he gets the guaranteed win. How is this really different? It is a co-op game because you are not supposed to be able to fight the monster alone.


#11

As stated previously, I doubt a solo split in four directions would really be a good idea without pouncing due to how scattered the team would be.

Its not really doing much other than punishing Pugs not coordinating enough to play truly optimally, at the moment.


@warpathchris

95% of the time or more not being able to pounce would make no difference against the last Hunter standing.

On the rare occasions it would, which is more fun for either side: a brief last stand confrontation, or an easy one-shot for an instant win?

It is an extremely rare case that removing pounce would matter there, but even when the last Hunter is doomed regardless it would be less frustrating to have a real fight at the end.


#12

This has been discussed multiple times on the forums.

This game is a team game, if you are alone you are screwed no matter why you were alone to begin with.
There is no epic last stand,
there is only epic lets get the hell out of here and try to survive till dropship comes, because I’m a puny lil hunter and the other guy is a fukken monster.

Pounce is realy punishing vs lone hunters and it is designed that way and the devs have said that they want to keep it that way to discourage solo hunters. They are adding a cooldown between pounces so that you cannot spam it anymore, which is good.

If you couldnt pounce because someone have recently shot you, lone hunter could kite the monster for even longer periods of time than they can right now and it would make pounce a nonthreath againts skilled hunters, againts lower level hunters it would still most likey work. It would also increase the monster players frustration level quite a lot as some people are realy good at kiting.

Removing mechanics that punish for badplays is bit silly. As then the game would be contiously dumbed down as there will always be game mechanics that punish low level play or non teamplay. People wouldnt want to learn new tactics as they know that next patch the hard things will be removed.
Take soundspikes for instance, only monster that do not know how they work will get caught by them atm.
The game is meant to be challenging, balanced and fun. Not modern hand holding simulator.

It is a team game for the hunters, it is not supposed to be fair when it goes down to 1v1.
If you were not smart enough to gtfo from the monster when you saw that you are soon to be going to be the last one alive then you deserve to be pounded hard.


#13

I’ve always felt a sneak attack is something a monster should be rewarded for being clever enough to get behind a lone hunter or straggler unawares. Not something he should be able to do willy-nilly. Disabling pounce when a fight is initiated seems perfectly reasonable to me.


#14

They better just get rid of Lazarus then.

On topic sneak pounce is fine. Your only argument for changing it is how it affects terrible players and my counter to that would be should this game be balanced for absolutely god awful terrible players? The answer to that is obviously no.

Overall this game favors Hunters, if we start nerfing the Monster because some level 1-15 players don’t know what they are doing then the situation at level 40 will be even worse than it is now.

You also keep trying to argue about last stands lone Hunter vs Monster. The Monster can already choose whether to do this “epic brawl” you keep fantasizing about or to simply pounce. You already know what Monsters choose to do so again, this is a change purely for Hunters so please stop trying to say it’s for both because frankly it’s ridiculous.


#15

What mechanic doesn’t punish novice players?


#16

Could at least make it so downed teamates can shoot it off lol. I see people saying you should run, but you also shouldn’t get caught alone? I haven’t had a person escape me as monster yet ( support lasts the longest though) traverse and sniff follow foot prints gg.


#18

I mainly hate stealth pounces because you just spam them in combat and almost stun lock a certain target to hell. Marlov fires lightening, Stealth pounce, breaks free from damage, hit him with a melee to stun him and pounce again. While I like the cooldown idea, I would just prefer it if they just made it to were getting shot out takes you out of croutching.


#19

Removing pounce, or at least combat pounce, wouldn’t change the fact that a lone Hunter is doomed against a competent Monster.

As stated twice previously, breaking into four directions wouldn’t be a good idea even without pounce - thus the mechanic only really punishes uncoordinated pugs.


I don’t see how simply attacking the Hunter would make things frustrating for the Monster.


So far as removing mechanics that punish uncoordinated play go, there is a continuum.

The positive affects on game-play and entertainment for both sides must be weighed against the negative and the net frustration it creates.

Call it fun vs anti-fun or whatever you wish, but the positives and negatives of everything must be weighed in design.

In my opinion sneak pounce doesn’t do much in skilled and coordinated play while creating disproportionate frustration in uncoordinated play in particular, and thus the negatives outweigh the positives.


That makes Sound Spikes, and Griffin by extension, quite gimmicky; and I have suggested in the past that they be scentless and detect the Monster regardless of what they do.


I’m not asking for a 1v1 fight to have even odds aside the very rarest of cases.

You’ve used a straw man fallacy in that statement, and something of a slippery slope fallacy in the paragraph before.



@Jynxten

That would be far less annoying from the Hunter side of things.

The devs could probably afford to make it kill faster were that the case.



@Celery

Lazarus has serious issues, though I think his gameplay hook is solid enough that it would be better to give him something to be viable against skilled Monsters rather than removing him.

It doesn’t really take long for a half-decent player to learn to focus Lazarus first, but the trick with any change directed at high level play would be ensuring it would not adversely affect low level play where he is already strong.

I made a proposal myself attempting to address that problem.


Part of my argument is that sneak pounce adds little to nothing to Monster gameplay against skilled and coordinated teams, since the four way split strategy it mostly punishes would not be strong anyway due to how scattered the Hunters would be.

In my opinion the game favors Monsters quite strongly mostly due to their ability to evade in the stage where they are on the defensive, the Hunt stage, though that is a larger and separate argument.

I don’t view sneak pounce as a very impactful mechanic balance-wise - just an annoying one mostly.


When did I say this was for both sides?

I said that most Monsters would probably have more fun fighting than sneak pouncing, but by the nature of things players will generally take the most optimal action for winning even when it is less fun.

Otherwise, I’d say they were goofing off or playing with a hand behind their back…like how I don’t skill Decoy on Wraith outside Defend mode.



@Thelasthunter

It is a spectrum, as stated earlier.



@Tarfiel_Archelone

That does make downed shooting feel worthless, admittedly.



@Thomas31h

At very least, they will be adding a cooldown to stealth pounce to prevent this.

Not sure what you mean by “taking you out of crouching”.


#20

The CD is being added in the patch which should make it more forgiving… I could get used to pounce simply dealing massive dmg one time, without locking a target in place. I tihnk that is a worse alternative, though. I mean the pounce is designed to not deal huge amounts of dmg for the benefit of the hunters. A lone hunter shall be punished by pounce, while it’s largely useless (with the upcoming CD) if there’s more than one hunter.


#21

I mean taking damage from a hunter would result in it standing back up again instead of it just keep on crouching.


#22

Tbh i haven’t thought of it as much.

That’s not true.If the monster finds a solo hunter for example stage 1 he will need to use at least 3 skills and some auto attacks to kill him.If we say that all the skills were sucessfull hitting the target.So i’d say pounce is good for that.I mean i do play only hunters but i feel like this mechanic should exist so we won’t be splitting into 4.

As for in-combat.Many monsters spam that.If you get someone behind a rock until the team hits the monster off that could be some damage yeah.But that can also give time for a Hank to orbital(just an example)

Anyway let’s see how much difference the 2 second cooldown will do.