Slim is way too strong and so is Goliath

AI bots have a notably reduced frequency of melee hits.

Even in your own video- There are NUMEROUS points where the kelder is just standing there. Doing nothing. Waiting for abilities.

Melee damage totals around 100 additional DPS from monsters.

Melee damage is a HUGE part of a monsters overall damage.

Using tests where monsters do NOT do this damage, is very reflective of the game.

If you want I will play kelder against you, same comp, and run the same tests. The difference being I will actually melee you. Care to see the difference?

Its also worth pointing out some monsters have inherent advantages towards slim- That bots will NOT use. Gorgon players for example uses her spindly small profile and mobility to DRAMATICALLY diminish slims healing potential in combat.

Heve you ever seen fresh use gorgon against slim comps?

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Lol I read that wrong my bad

the problem with all of this is that you did all this testing against bots. with dodging, I can do anything I want to bots as medic. I regularly play medic in Coop (when I can’t play anything else due to my poor internet) and there’s literally nothing the robot can do no matter which medic I pick because for all intents and purposes I’m completely immortal versus a bot.

If you had done some real work against players who had equal or higher skill, I would be inclined to believe that. From firsthand experience I think Slim needs to back down again, but Goliath just needs a little dial back from his current state.

If medics were weaker, games wouldnt last past stage 1. [quote=“Sepiablitz, post:96, topic:105091”]
How many games have you played with the increased healing perks?
[/quote]

Why should the game be balanced around perks, perks that just came out yesterday LOL thats silly.

The best thing a Monster player can do against Slim right now is to quit. There is no timer or keys penalty. It’s just not worth the effort right now; you’ll be on your way to a more enjoyable match 20-25 minutes sooner than if you stick around.

I think this suffers from a case of confirmation bias. For those who do not know, confirmation bias is when you use evidence to support a theory or belief already held. Slim being strong is nothing new. The Dev’s have even confirmed it right here:

There is no reason to run this challenge unless you were looking to prove something about Slim, which is that in the situation you set up, he is very good.


There also are a couple of problems with the way you set this up. You cannot claim that Goliath and Slim are OP unless you put a very important qualifier with it.

[emphasis mine]

The situation you set up, frankly is one where Slim should excel. He has maximum stacked perks, LOS on the Monster and pretty much everything else he would need to make this a success. An interesting factor is that you didn’t move or dodge. Most players have to move around and most take a significant accuracy hit doing so.

As a Monster player I can think of a couple of ways to make Slim less effective, which ironically you figured out against the Gorgon Bot. Gorgon is a good counter to a Slim because of the Spider Traps being able to nullify his ability to shoot, but that doesn’t always work. A good Monster can move people around, make himself a smaller target and keep Hunters out of Slims Healing Range. If Slim can’t hit you to recharge the HB or cannot hit his teammates with it, things become much different.

You also used the AI to your advantage. AI Hunters usually stay close to you. AI Monsters almost always target the medic first. That means the Monster bee-lines right to you and the AI Hunters just collapse on you, never having to move around or become the focus of the Monster. Real people make dumb choices sometimes and that effects the outcome. Bots and Humans don’t really compare too well.


I think the challenge you did was far too narrow in scope to be able to proclaim that one of the more balanced Monsters is too powerful. If that were the case I’m sure that we would have heard about a Monster that could so over power the most over powered Medic in the game before now.

Not sure why this "test"was even carried out. The flaws in it are just huge. No one should take this thread seriously at all.

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I agree Slim needs to be nerfed but this argument (sepia’s) doesn’t hold water. Bots don’t do ability combos quickly enough and experienced players with the other monsters with the exception of the Behemoth have testified that they can deal with Slim to an extent.

Beyond that, the AI Goliath is the best monster AI because it’s the one that’s been the most worked on by the Devs and ironically, the most aggressive when it comes to abilities. It isn’t overpowered.

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the reason Goliath could is because he is a 1v1 monster,
Bob is an AOE monster who can, in the heat of battle 1v1 a hunter while making sure the other team wont come near
Wraith is a FT3 monster who should be downing the trapper or the weakest team member so that they can have a chance against a weakened team, her WB and SN are mainly CC more than anything
Molly is a spread damage monster who is close the the strength of Golly but needs to switch focus often to utilize his spread damage
Kelder is used against large groups as all his abilities have wide hit boxes and deal more damage when directed at groups
Kraken’s abilities are used to spread out the hunters and then whale on one
gorgon is an AOE based monster and guess what type of healer slim is?
Golly is a 1v1 monster who is able to rip through healing that needs to be shielded
also pay attention to the bots, jack is a counter to molly gorgon and Bob, Rabe weakens monsters and bucket can provide shielding twice and speed up how fast you get your HB

Wraith should never ever flee till 3. The worst case scenario for wraith is fighting at stage 3. She doesn’t have much armour so her approach is gonna leave her missing some of her already tiny armour the hunters are gonna be set up and ready. Soon as hunters set up at the relay I know I’m in for a hell of a fight. Thats how I lost one of my 11 loses fought them twice won once lost once the first one they kept chasing me at stage 2 and I kept hitting them and winning engagements until they backed off to the relay the second one they only chased till I hit stage 2 then they went to the relay and that was the one I lost.

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#We cannot emphasize this enough

#Do not do this with wraith, it is a death sentence.

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How many of those were running the perk set I used?

Every game against Behemoth and Elder Kraken. I lost 1 game against MG an Wraith where it had some sort of poison (you can hear if you are poisoned), 1 against Kraken where I refused to shoot banshee mines, 1 against Gorgon because I got caught in every Spider Trap and cant heal myself for 3 seconds (which is why I amke an exception here and dodge Spider Traps onto ledges). I lost every game against Goliath.
Other than that I won every game, it were at least 3 against every Monster.

The Ai will do that when the glove is on cooldown btw.

I hold every Monster to the very same standard which is landing EVERYTHING. Against an Overpowered Hunter only 1 of them was able to break through, and that in a super short amount of time. The absolute lowest estimate was a damage output of 247 DPS for goliath. Every other Monster failed to surpass 187 HPS. This means the damage output of Goliath landing everything is at the VERY least 32% higher than ANY other Monster doing the same thing.

That would be new to me. [quote=“Sidewaysgts, post:103, topic:105091”]
Care to see the difference?
[/quote]

All right, lets do it.

I was not dodging anything.

Which is it now? You said Monsters are to weak. If you bring medics down a little, then suddenly everything changes dramatically?

Is not about the perks itself, it is what the perks show. They increase healing by 20%. And 20% of 150 HPS is way more than 20% of 44HPS. This is why Slim strength becomes even more apperant.

I know what that is. And I never stated what I was trying to figure out with this test. I didnt try to prove that Slim is OP. There was no doubt about that before the test based on various games I had with since 8.0 legacy since when he did not become significantly weaker. I was also not trying to prove that Goliath is OP. I simply had him in the category “too strong”. Based off my results I changed my opinion about both of them. I changed Slim from OP to unkillable and Goliath from “too strong” to “way too strong”.

The results I was expecting were that every Monster would down me eventually, but with different times needed. I wanted to rank them based of these times and determine an estimate DPS value for each of them.
But I got results that contradicted that and thus I changed my stance according to the evidence.

First I played with Kala as Support and wanted to find out, how long it takes for Behemoth to down me if I dont dodge anything. Turns out he couldnt. I changed to Goliath. Turns out he could, very fast in that. I switched Support to Bucket and Goliath still downed me very fast. I tried every other Monster, but none could down me bar Gorgon spamming Spider Trap and Kraken with all 3 banshee mines alway hitting (took longer than Goliath though).

If you are talking about confirmation bias, why dont you take a look at some of the posts here.
People come here with the opinion that Goliath is balanced. And what do they write (paraphrased)? “See? Goliath being on par with a broken Medic means he is balanced. Just as I thought, the evidence proves what I already believed.” Or “The evidence is invalid because otherwise Goliath would not be balanced which contradicts what I already believe.”

People just seem to see Goliath as “balanced by definition” and “balanced no matter what”.

If gorgon focuses Slim and places a Spider Trap right next to Slim, any halfway decent Assault, Trapper or Support who is shooting at Gorgon will take out the Spider Trap immediatly.

Actually I had some trouble to get them to focus me instead of Support.

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Will need to see your videos.

I just tried this against Kelder running your perk set as slim, with Markov, OG Maggie and T.Hank and Kelder.

Played it 3 times. Same setup. In all three games the AI did NOT focus all abilities on me. Sure each one he used hit me - as I did not dodge - but he cast lightning on support 3 times and once on trapper. He fired 1 banshee mine to assault.

He also did not melee in between abilities.

If anything this proves the AI logic needs work.

Again as stated in my first reply your testing logic flawed using BOTs and AI as a measuring stick. Hop in to a custom game with a human controlling the monster that can focus you properly without dodging please.

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Sorry m8… But AI is not even close to consistent in it’s attacks… + you’d need to redo the test tons of times to even get close to some manner of a pattern.
Truth of the matter is that flawed method = useless results.
But thank you for the efforts! :slight_smile:

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For the love of god, Goliath is perfectly fine, he is probably the only truly balanced monster in the game.

The problem is that all of the other monsters are bad or mediocre right now(except maybe kelder).

Goliath has the highest burst of all the monsters, that’s his thing, if you eat all of his abilities you are going to die, harpoons and dodges are his weakness, face tanking his stuff it’s not…

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Slim is too strong confirmed. :stuck_out_tongue: Goliath is in a very iffy spot like I dare not say he’s OP because the community will have me stoned for saying such things, but yeah he is a bit on the strong side right now. Which could cause a power creep where we’d revert back to the bursty meta.

I don’t think most people are getting the point of the posts. So @Sepiablitz I think the only thing left to do is have a player demonstration this. Just add me on steam and I’ll throw all my abilities for you.

Steam name is the same name as here :slight_smile: Toss me an invite

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I want to see this match someone record it

If this were truly the case, is there any reason top teams feel forced to run Slim whenever someone else plays Goliath?

I think we understand the point behind Goliath, his job is burst damage, but the point here is that his damage overall is far exceeding every other monster’s damage. Enough so that he can down what is considered to be the most overpowered medic in game with relative ease.

If something can down what is considered to be overpowered easily, where as no other monster came close to succeeding, then that something (Goliath) is overpowered as well.

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I don’t feel like hunters feel forced to select Slim if they monster picks Goliath? Where did you get that idea?