Reworking Lazarus: The options


#1

So there have been several threads touching on the issue of Lazarus, his lack of picks in competitive play, the lack of opportunity to use the main reason he’s on the team, and yet also his seemingly “over powered” nature against less experienced or skilled monsters.

I’m using this thread to collate the genuine and interesting opinions on how Laz could be changed to improve the enjoyment of playing as him and with him, as well as against him; ideas on how he can be reworked that make him an all round more viable pick.

Sorry if I’ve not credited your idea, just know that I’m not claiming these are exclusively my ideas and that some are definitely things I’ve remembered from other people’s suggestions! They are also individual suggestions, not intended to necessarily all be used at the same time.


#I’m not interested in your story about how Laz is perfectly fine/utterly broken because [get some skill|anecdotal example|medics should be healers]

Take that to one of the other threads about Laz.


Remove revivification of incapped hunters

Reviving incapped hunters promotes body camping, and body camping/kiting is an all or nothing move. It’d be nice to have a bit more tactical nuance in battles with Laz in the same way we do with other medics/support combos. Be true to his name, only allow Laz to revive from the dead. This allows monsters to move more freely between hunters to try and force a win by actually taking the team out rather than the anti-climatic situation of current that sees laz try and fail to revive the dead body and the whole team then knowing what the likely outcome is now that person is 2 minutes away from being back in the game.

Other medics force the focus and chaining tactics from monsters, I feel that Laz offers the opportunity to make the optimal strategy something different to this, namely broad damage with a well executed final attack. While he can revive incapped players this strategy can never be seen.

(note: I really think this needs to be combined with an ability to stop the monster eating bodies for the best effect, it gives the Monster a window, creates a cat and mouse battle between laz and the Monster, and also ensures that Laz doesn’t feel like he is utterly useless)

Block eating of bodies

Make it so that if Laz is within a certain range of human bodies that they can’t be eaten (or maybe all bodies, any wildlife, probably easier code wise). Possibly linked to having the lazarus device “armed”. This acts as both a way to try to give Laz opportunities to do his thing, and gives a sub-strategy in Laz teams if he is able to utilise his cloak around a feeding monster for a small period of time.

Sniper rifle emetic quality (@ONP_X)

Allow shooting of hunter/human bodies to make them inedible for a period of time

Personal Shield on successful revive

Laz almost certainly will be targeted the moment he goes for the revive, he’ll either be interrupted and likely killed, or be successful and…likely killed. It’d be good to have the device provide a personal shield for Laz on successful revives, though nothing of the kind of duration that the Assault enjoys.

Toggleable Cloak

Make Laz’s cloak a toggle weapon rather than a cool down one. It probably can’t be done due to the way abilities in the game work, but the feeling has been that if Laz can pick and choose when to be cloaked he is going to be more survivable.

Cloaking masks scent

The problem with cloak is that it only does so much, and good monsters can quite easily work out where laz is. Ideas on this ranged from giving Laz an anti-smell boost before and after the cloak is used, to hiding footprints and/or jet trails.

The Lazarus effect (@DrevD)

Have the device not instantly revive anything, but bring it back to life over a period of a few seconds like a reverse incap state. This would force the monster to choose between Laz or undoing the work Laz has done

Lazarus device number tweaks

Increase the range of the device, but make the cast time longer. Gives the monster less of a target to aim at arbitrarily, but also more time to deal with a Laz who hasn’t been sneaky enough.

Never ending revive timer (@miles_mungin)

Have it so that even if eaten the body can be revived (although with a strike). It makes body camping infeasible since the timescales are too long, and improves the chances of getting someone back into the game, even if it is with a strike.


I’m not putting all ideas in here, I want to highlight ideas that to me feel to be true to Laz’s core principles and mechanics, and that don’t ruin the game for less skilled players just to balance things out with the pros. But feel free to post any below that I’ve missed, and I may edit them in to this post!


Now that Caira is less cheese and Val a reliable medic, what are we going to do about Laz?
#2

I feel like his mechanics are fine, the problem is simply that he is all or nothing, and it is difficult to not be taken out as Laz. Maybe make his cloak unbreakable even when hit? May give him a little more of an edge


#3

Laz is very hit or miss. A bad Laz seems stupidly UP because while a bad Caira would still help out and heal even a little, Laz is all or nothing.

That being said I like the Lazarus Effect idea.


#4

Yeah, I would like the hunter’s cloak to be more reliable overall, because right now there’s about a dozen ways for the monster to see though it; Other than that, Laz is completely fine.


#5

I would agree he may need something, but not in the way of heals or revives… those are annoying as heck already, he himself just needs… something


#6

I agree that Laz is fine as a whole, but he needs a better survivability/detection avoidance option.


#7

Competent teams based around him :wink:?


#8

Yep, I’m not one of those that thinks that Laz is overpowered or underpowered, he’s just…wrong. I imagine it is only a small change that is needed but whatever that change is it can be enough to make Laz both more reliable and more fun, while not compromising on the Monsters game. This is why I prefer the not reviving incapped hunters balanced against not eating hunters…it doesn’t really touch Laz at all, just how he interacts with the existing game mechanics.

My concern with this is that it could completely shut out less experienced monsters and create a point in the player levels where Laz is actually OP against monsters. Is there anything that can be done to the stealth play that improves him against monsters that know how to look out for cloaked players without making him incredibly hard to find for those that don’t?


#9

Honestly I think laz is some what fine but body camping can be an extremely effective strategy against a weak/ineffective team…
I disagree with it needing a number change really… that toggle cloak sounds freaking awesome though…

I would like to see the actual revival mechanic tweak… make it so that the body can be revived at any point within the timer… but if the body is eaten to bones… then strike is applied… but if the monster wants to stop revival he must continue to camp until he thinks laz can’t revive anymore


#10

Isn’t there a risk here of it getting too frustrating for the monster in this scenario, he would feel tethered to one location for quite a long time potentially?


#11

The monster is already forced to wait for quite the long time or at least eat the body to save a couple seconds… in this case you could maybe even shorten the window of relevant revival because the monster is punished for early body abandonment… forcing him to decide between eating to get the down, running to maintain health, or ensuring the Hunter is not revive… as opposed to the current battle of the bodies


#12

Sorry I wasn’t clear, it’s my opinion that it limits the strategies and enjoyment of the game if the monster is made to wait and body camp/kite, for both parties. I feel we should be looking at ways to help it not be the only thing a monster can do.

edit: but I do see what you’re saying :slight_smile:


#13

But then there would be no point to having Laz if you can’t just bring them back and just waste your time waiting for the skull to heal up when more than likely the monster will go after the body. I like the way he is now. He takes innovative coordination to handle with productively.


#14

Give him a high movement speed boost after he revives someone for a few seconds. Would give him a higher chance of escaping without making it overpowered.

You guys know you can shoot the monster to stop it eating dead bodies? If the monster is able to stand still for a few seconds and eat then you aren’t punishing him properly. I do agree that Laz sucks and needs to be buffed in some way, just don’t think it should be something drastic.


#15

Exactly I agree with you 100% there that whole loop is kinda stale cause kinda force the two sides into an awkward forced strategies… making the monster concentrate on eating/camping or running… and making the hunters concentrate solely on trying to stop that… with the only two things standing in a monsters way being your LOS and a 3 second animation…

I just think my suggestion adds a couple folds to the strategy because it allows Lazarus to actually be able to hang back for a second and let his teammate take a strike… in return for still getting the revive and having the whole team… if the monster is distracted/deterred… it makes sure the monster player must always keep this in mind and be aware that the team could potentially use camping against it


#16

Yep, everyone knows this. They also know that it isn’t quite as straightforward as that when a wraith is involved, and they also know that good monsters make opportunities to eat for themselves by stunning hunters and choosing their time wisely. :smile:


#17

The only thing I agree with here is the removal of reviving an incapped hunter, that’s just not how the device is supposed to work.

If you can heal up a hunter that is incapped with the glove why wouldn’t you be able to heal one that’s just running around?

Laz is already easily countered so making any of his abilities less useful is not a good idea (apart from the incapped thing, it doesn’t make sense)


#18

I play alot of Lazarus, and to be honest: Yes, I’m pretty good with him, but if I had spent the same amount of time playing any other character I would have been MUCH better.

  • There should be a way to make the corpse un-edible. I have played against Wraiths that spam decoy trying to eat corpses while using the feeding speed perk. They just re-position whenever they are revealed and if you have to reload, the body is already lost

  • Personal shield on revive is something that could be very interesting to atleast try.

  • Totally agree with toggleable cloak. The current cloak is bland, boring, not very tactical and against a good monster it require prayers and religious candles.

  • The Lazarus effect would be worth a try, tough I think I would prefer getting the guy up instantly so he can serve as a better distraction.

When it comes to removing the ability to revive while incapped, I’d agree if it meant we would have a buff somewhere else to balance it out, but what about in pubs? People already try to ruin your game by picking up incapped players. With that change you wouldn’t even be able to race them to the body. A “refuse” option to stop people to pick you up while incapped is required first.


#19

Man i cant believe so many ppl feel that laz needs a buffs when i am praying to every god in “existence” that he gets a nerf.


#20

Very good point, though I hope people would learn quickly (as in general they have done)