Revive vs Sustain?


#1

This will be a topic about the heralded awesomeness that is Lazarus vs the unsung hero val. while Laz has a really awesome ability it seems like a risky bet that a monster will not focus, set up, or just flat out kill laz then the rest of the team. and your basically fighting 3v1 because laz doesnt want to be seen at all. so now comes the problem of DPS.

Val can heal really well. watch the first videos vs goliath and you will see the combination of the assault shield, Support shield, and her heals and assault was pretty much invicible. add hyde in that comp and dam he could put out some serious damage without needing to be revived. in terms of dps where every second counts, this combo is actually better. u can go bucket for more dps since the assault shield and heals from val might be enough.

so my first “comp” would be Val, Hyde, Bucket, Griffin.

Tell me what you guys think!


Isn't Lazarus a little over powered?
#2

Haha, you have named my comp as well! Although I based it off my favorite hunters for each class. I think that having Val as a traditional healer would help keep Hyde alive and more able to run in to use his flamethrower. I also think Val may be more effective against Goliath as Goliath is more melee oriented and can’t one shot hunters (afaik) so she can clearly see who Goliath is focusing and use her heal on his target. Laz would be less effective against Goliath I think because Goliath seems to have more attacks that knock them around and he might be able to guard dead bodies better than Kraken, he also has the armor to get close and really focus one person.

And as you said, Lazarus is good for when things go bad but I think you are right about Val being the more efficient healer because she can keep people up and in the fight constantly doing their job.

So yea, I think the comp sounds like a really heavy damage comp with Griffin for more reactive control (no need to setup traps) Bucket for more aggressive support than Hank, Hyde for highest damage gun, and Val to keep them all in the fight without going down.


#3

That is currently my prefered setup too. Especially if you take the high damageoutput from the assault and the high survivability with Val.


#4

Hmm, I have a problem with this line of reasoning. I don’t mean to make a strawman argument, but its almost like saying that a hunter is balanced because they are OP, so the monster will target them first and that makes it risky taking them. You could make the same argument for any hunter thats too good . My first impression is that I would take Laz over Val every time.

While TRS might have the telemetry showing that Laz is balanced in comparison to Val, Laz makes the monster experience very unsatisfying, imho. You want to have a sense of progression, and Laz can come in and wipe away all the progress the monster accomplished in battle.

Again, I never played the game. I may well eat my own words. But just from watching the matches, something feels off. For me its unsatisfying simply watching the monster not able to make any headway as Laz just keeps reviving , reviving, reviving.

EDIT: I didn’t watch today’s stream, but it sounds like monsters won a few. I’ll have to watch it when I get back ( I thought the stream started at 5pm pst today?)


#5

@DRevD: I think you MIGHT be right, as you said none of us have played so we might be way off and wrong.

Having said that, I think Laz is balanced around the fact that if you go down, Laz might or might not be able to get to you. Val can always heal you it seems, you can always stay topped off on health. Going down means you are near death and Laz MUST revive you or you will earn a strike if another hunter helps you or if you die all the way and have no body to revive.

Keep in mind, Laz can NOT revive himself. He will still take “attrition”. While Val will be able to keep people away from death, Laz reverses death. It’s probably more efficient if you never get close to death.

But we will see, I think Lazarus might be a bit OP though still mainly because of how fast that Lazarus device works. I feel like it should take a solid 4 - 6 seconds of “channeling”.


#6

ill point out that i have watched pretty much all the content so far. my request to the devs was that they should showcase monsters winning more or people will get worried. just like you are now. and no goliath lost every single match that he was in. that interactive video he jumped into mines while being shot with a lazer either it was a tie or he died.
i think kraken has a steeper learning curve than goliath. and people who play one practice round will not do good agaisnt average expierenced hunters. most shooters have revivers so they naturally know what they need to do. these kraken players think staying away and casting skill shots is all the kraken can do. if you watch the devs play(it should be posted soon) they played the kraken COmpletely different. he still lossed but still. i think monster players will evolve to learn how to deal with laz. to me its not that hard especially if you master the controls/moves.

I can’t wait for this game to come out so i can put my strats to use and watch as OP laz falls to my glory >:))


#7

Like a lot of people have said laz may be op to val one thing they seem to forget or discount is laz and val have a aoe heal so even if laz bites it he can still heal up if im right have not seen it in combat nor played yet but thats the way i think it works could be wrong making laz almost too powerful if they made his revive take 20-30 sec cool down maybe not so broken but i guess is all who you are fighting for goliath i see hyde for the close range dps, val can heal who she sees is taking the beating, maggie with her trap jaw and positioning of her traps making it hard for big g to move and easier to hunt, and bucket with turrents and rockets helping waste goliath. as for kraken i see markov for range, laz encase anyone gets wrecked, griffen has more dps and long range on traps to catch a flying kraken, and hank seems like kraken is slower so orbital bombing would work more and can help laz by shielding alleys. but hey thats just me could be wrong. happy hunting


#8

Love that response totally makes sense for kraken! And that aoe heal ur talking about is the support class ability. So every medic will have it. And you cannot deploy it while being downed to heal. So if Lazarus is downd and ends up dieing. Then no matter what hes gone til the dropship arrives.


#9

It was fairly clear that the interactive video was staged. It was a demo really.

Just finished watching today’s stream, except for the first tourny match (couldn’t find it on the twitch channel…if anyone has a link I’d appreciate it). I saw one match with the devs playing, and kraken lost. Watched where the Kraken won one, with Malik playing very well as the monster. However he was allowed to get to stage 3 untouched, and it was still a very close game. Then I watched the last one, as the Kraken came close at stage 2 but couldn’t pull it off.

Any way I still am not convinced about Laz, I think he will continue to be a point of contention. Essentially, he feels cheap…and it really messes up any sense of progression for monster players. I understand that his role to undo monster progression by removing strikes, but I don’t know if that is a wise choice. You could just tell from the twitch chat that most people did not like what they were seeing with Laz. I think if this were a strictly co-op game and we were playing a NPC monster, Laz would not be a problem, but as is, he creates unsatisfying gameplay imho. Both for the monster player, and for people watching. On the hunter side, doing damage to the monster’s health is very satisfying since you know thats progression you can put in the bank. I think you need to keep that for monster as well, even with Laz around.

Again, Im just some guy who has only watched games, so take this for what it is… bit I don’t think Laz should be about removing strikes. I think removing strikes is not the way to go with any hunter. Don’t remove the sense of progression for monster players. Instead of removing strikes, simply have laz be the medic that can bring back incap players quicker and of course bring them back form the dead without waiting on the shuttle. That alone is great. In fact he’ll play exactly as he does now, BUT at least the monster will know that his incaps are not for nothing. He might be too weak without strike removal, but tweak other things to make up for it. Just don’t have strike removal in the game as a standard ability. My 2 cents.


#10

Love this thread. Just wait till the third medic enters the discussion!!!


#11

Maybe it’s just me but I love that Laz can stop the monster’s progress. It makes him more of a target which is why I’d love to play as him since you’re basically the key to your team’s success


#12

Hey man, I can’t wait.
I hope I didn’t come off as too negative with my issues with Laz. They are based on a feeling that something doesn’t feel right, and hopefully I articulated those issues well enough. Its a feeling I don’t get with any other hunter or monster and they seem well balanced. In fact even with my issues with Laz, the game was still a blast to watch, and I can’t wait to see the next batch of hunters and new monster.


#13

Lol MacMan probly knows about the 3erd set of hunters and can already read the ups and downs in his head. And I know laz can’t pop his heal when he is incap but it still gives him a heal making him a bit much I personly think they should have made it a instant distant Rez but hell many they thryed already and didn’t work well enough.


#14

v co founder loves my thread.

Anyways I get what you are saying but I think I see it a bit differently. If you look at val shes the steady pace wins the race type. heal whos focused then ull do fine. But laz is completely opposite(TRS’s ultimate goal). He is like a dam teeter totter or a balance scale. The battles with him sway heavily back and forth mostly based on him. Maybe thats the part you dont like is that he becomes the center of everything vs apart of the team. But I ask you this. Have you ever felt like the weak link or close to useless as medics on other games? Thats what makes laz so cool he puts supports(normal name in other games) on a pedistal as in the others wnt be able to outshine him. Its great for once medic will actually get praised for his hard work. Not “goodjob on those snares griffin.” Its “omfg laz u saved us all!”


#15

I’m pretty curious as to what the third medic could even possibly be? You have sustain and revive, I’m not really sure what else you could do without straying into Hank’s place with some kind of temp shield.


#16

No way man no hate here! We are in this together to make evolve the best game possible!


#17

One thing that is important to clarify is that Laz doesn’t actually erase strikes. He is just able to revive without adding one. So if the monster does manage to get a strike on somone (they get incapped and revived by means other than the Lazarus device), Laz can never take that away.

Also, the Laz device does have a cooldown. Games are sometimes won because the monster puts people down so quickly that Laz cannot keep up. Something that Val rarely has a problem with.

The dev who played Lazarus today is the best medic player in the whole studio. Not somebody that I ever want to go up against. :slight_smile: Was fun to watch.


#18

In the end we will see and enjoy the game. And yes I have thought laz may be a weak link if you pounce or focus fire him then watch His body till he’s done may put a bigger hurt on the team then most because I can see people not scared of incap if laz is around.


#19

And it would probably be correct to say that Laz’s other weakness is that he can’t use his device on himself so he is still susceptible to strikes, I imagine being able to put 2 strikes on Lazarus early on is a big advantage for the monster in those later fights, means he only has to down Laz for Laz to die instantly and then the fight is probably downhill from there.


#20

After you play against Laz for a while and go back to playing against Val, you’ll be shocked at how hard it is to incap someone. It’s just a different style of play for everyone.