I get why people don’t like the grounder perk and I agree it’s overtuned and too strong but I’m happy they’re introducing CC for monsters. I’ve played against sunny val griffin torvald comps and it’s hell as a monster. Hunters getting a little bit of their own medicine is aces in my book.
Personally I don’t mind Griffin, or any CC for that matter. I find it’s only fair that monsters get a means to slow down hunters just as easily. On top of that, the monster needs to sacrifice movement speed, traversal speed, damage reduction, whatever they normally take. This effectively makes them a lot weaker at stage one, where they still struggle to get in strikes against premades.
Should be interesting to see how this affects monster win rates. I would guess that this perk will give them really good info for future patches. With all the doom and gloom, I am curious to see what it’s going to look like around here if the next patch is another round of hunter nerfs and monster buffs.
yeah they dont seem to understand that monsters would be sacrificing a good amount. @IWannaBeATiger although i kinda knew this was going to happen the moment i saw it in the patch notes, anything that keeps hunters from bouncing around like crazy is viewed as pure evil.
Monsters already have enough tools to deny dodging.
- Drain jetpack
- Corner the hunter
- Combo abilities
- Foresee where the hunter dodges to
Come on, you don’t need to hiddenly mess with how their character reacts to their inputs to hit with an ability, do you?
I’m playing monster as well and dodging feels very fair to me.
Have you played with that perk yet? It’s a very easy to melee+Rock/LeapSmash/Lightning Strike/…
Hard CC from the hunter’s side requires coordination and skill. This kind of CC requires picking a perk. Yay.
And don’t even try to compare monster CC with hunter CC. The monster is much faster than the hunters. The hunters need CC to make it even. The hunters can die from essentially one messed up dodge. Plus, this kind of melee CC is spammable.
In case anyone wants to hear competitive players’ opinions on the Grounder perk:
Just one quote:
Now it’s like you can’t dodge in open combat so it’s like basically once he starts attacking you you’re just like “I’m just sitting here and be attacked”. Does that sound ideal? That no one dodges? Once he starts engaging you just sit there and take it, you just trade hits. That’s not what it’s supposed to be about. You’re supposed to dodge abilities."
- Puggims (00:49:10)
Always hits the nail on the head.
I talked about the first games of the stream here:
Grounder is needed to straight up deal with certain comps. While I agree it’s overtuned I think it has a place in this game. The hunters jetpack is insane atm if you start to stack the correct perks with it. Giving a way to tone it back helps monsters out a lot.
I’d be fine with grounder even not messing with jetpack dodge but rather jetpack regen. It’d have a similar effect at high-level play depending on the value but also have a lot more counterplay. No more “I have to face tank this ability because my jetpack can’t dodge”. More “I have to conserve my jetpack even more during fights”.
niaccurshi said it. You don’t solve balance issues with a perk. Perks are supposed to cater to different play styles. It isn’t intended that some perks are mandatory to succeed. Plus, you are blind-picking your monster and your perk. How are you gonna counter anything if you are going to blind-pick?
If a hunter perk needs to be toned down, just tone it down instead of introducing a “counter” perk that is imbalanced itself. Don’t fight bullshit with bullshit.
Yeah, I’d be much more on board with that one. Although IMO perks are for buffing yourself, not screwing with other people.
You don’t even get to see which perk the monster has so by the time you realize “I have to conserve my jetpack even more during fights”, you may be already incapped. Or you will never realize it and it just feels weird.
Grounded and those other new perks are too strong and same with other hunter perks that allow crazy mobility. TRS should honestly just remove move both and I think all will be fine. Jetpacks were fine in legacy and I am pretty sure they made them better in stage 2 so there is no need to give perks that enhance that. On the other hand, being unable to doge a LS or a RT is just dumb because of a perk or not even being able to get a monster off of you.
I’ll try to explain why Kraken is terrible atm and why this actually makes him viable against good teams (in an unhealthy way imo).
Krakens LS will only ever hit a good hunter (even if it’s T3 LS) if you’ve pinned them, tumbled them, or you’ve burned their jetpack. Now this was extremely fun to do and extremely hard to do against good players but it was possible. The issue was he’d take way too much punishment in exchange for getting the one strike.
The even shittier thing is it only did 500 damage (550 t3) meaning hitting the hardest skillshot in the game only gave you 1/3rd of their HP the same the undodgeable aftershock gives you currently (and why I think it’s needed if you’re running a semi-viable Kraken build).
It only doing 500 damage meant you had to hit it twice in a row to drop a good hunter or get lucky and land a few banshees on them (which is a hunter mistake and not a monster play). Hitting the ability twice in a row was essentially impossible due to how fast jetpack recharge worked. You’d get them in a corner and then they’d rocket out, you got them when they were low on jetpack and they’ll just boost out of your next one. This essentially meant you could be playing Kraken perfectly and still lose games.
We can see currently though that some monsters aren’t having too much difficulty in this meta (Meaty/Kelder). Now it’s very obvious why if you look at their kits. Both of these monsters have 2 major skills which are pretty much unavoidable Kelder being Aftershock and Banshee Missile and Meaty being Charge and a well placed Leap Smash.
It’s actually quite funny because Leap Smash and Lightning Strike act very similar in design. They’re both ground AoEs with quite a large radius and large burst of damage. The major difference between the two is Leap Smash is a reaction based dodge while Lightning Strike is a prediction based dodge. What I mean by that is for Leap Smash you have to generally know where/when the monster is going to use it without burning all of your jet fuel. Lightning Strike is a prediction based spell due to it having a large windup (1.65s) and a slightly smaller AoE. Basically, Lightning Strike doesn’t put the hunter into a “Where do I think I need to dodge” but rather “This is where I need to dodge”. It does this because of the longer cast time and much less panic it brings (A giant monster jumping at you versus a pool of electricity forming at your feet) .
So what does LS need to do to be viable without Grounder? It needs to be able to hit a hunter who makes a mistake on both prediction, positioning, and combat control. It currently does 2/3 but fails on the prediction part. To succeed on prediction I believe it needs to travel much faster on the end of its cast time. Meaning you’ll have to dodge in the opposite direction Kraken is moving it or waste multiple jetpack boosts in order to dodge it. I’d be fine with them even reducing the radius for a much more threatening spell.
Grounder is currently filling the roll for this by hurting the hunters instead of helping Kraken. I’m also in the boat that this is pretty toxic game design unless the effect is pretty shitty.
Many players complained this game is becoming casual.And now,jetpack management and movement which was undeniably a part of hunter skill is ruined with a monster perk? Whats worse is that some people that complained about the “casualization” now defend this since they play monster mostly.
Whats next? Perks that make aiming shaky?
Yeah, Kraken is basically only managing to cause problems to people that are already bad at their positioning and jetpack management. You can see how poorly he performs now when hunters have their act together. I completely agree on the need for his lightning strike to have something extra, some more speed or something.
Like you say, Grounder shouldn’t be making up for this ability deficit.
Strawmen aren’t useful in discussion. Just about every Monster main I’ve met says Grounder is ridiculous at the moment.
Thanks for the long explanation. I know all of this (except the actual numbers) but it’s always nice to read posts of people that have a great understanding of the game mechanics.
I totally agree that Lightning Strike is too easy to dodge. Your idea of faster cast/travel time but a decreased radius is worth a try. Banshee mines need a few more tweaks, too. Maybe shorter time before they start homing in. I was shooting almost all of them myself while you were focusing me (which was actually the Trapper’s job but he failed in doing so). It wasn’t hard. You actually got me with Vortex tumbles and maybe due to the Grounder perk, couldn’t tell.
I absolutely agree with you that Meaty and Kelder’s strength comes from having abilities that are heavy hitters and undodgeable at the same time. I really don’t like heavy hitting shotgun abilities. Where’s the skill in that? I don’t want to avoid abilities by running around things. I want a chance to dodge them. That’s why I like fighting Goliath, Kraken and Behemoth the most. You can dodge their heavy hitters and they don’t rely on tumbling and melee/ability spam.
Anyway, I’m glad you agree that Grounder is toxic and balance issues should be solved in general.
I don’t see why a Monster needs to be viable because of a certain perk. That’s not how you balance something.
To a degree this isnt even about the actual impact of the perk. to me it that it gives monsters a choice to be able to control hunters better. Why do you think monsters have to rely on unavoidable abilities, tumble locks pushing into corners… Its because if they didnt they would have almost no chance against hunters who are decent. Hunters have had lots of ways to slow down the monsters, in fact this is almost the sole purpose of the trapper class. So why shouldnt monster players be able to slow hunters some. Yes i believe the perk needs some tuneing but it does not make it broken.
All in all, I feel that all of the perks that effed jetpack should be removed from both sides. Look at the forums over the past month, it’s all “hunters are flying too much” or now it’s “monsters are stopping hunters from flying too much”. So why not just removed the core problem by just making all jetpacks uniform (besides Sunny) without the chance of it being something weird?
To say that stuff like harpoons and stasis limit monster mobility and so monsters should get Hunter CC is quite frankly BS.
It’s 1v4, and there isn’t a harpoon that can’t be broken or a stasis that does extreme movement slow. Those are to control the monsters movement, thus greatly limits how a monster can focus.
A perk that then “debuffs” the hunters and puts them at a disadvantage is not like harpoons or stasis. Those do not disadvantage the monster, it instead balances the game and prevents hard focus. Hard focus is stressful for new and casual games because they lack the experience to avoid, get out of, or mitigate that focus.
As for the perk, it should be removed. If hunters who float are a problem, then a perk like melee range extender should be buffed or added, not a perk that punishes any Hunter who does not float above the monster.
Should monsters recieve a Hunter CC perk? I’m leaning towards no. The monsters already have a huge disposal of abilities, and perks increase areas that the monster struggles with or buffs their strong spots.
If hunters floating above monster is a problem, switch monster mains. Monster players need to be flexible. Hunters who go full-out Jetpack perks, go Gorgon to stop roaching. Need to damage/distract hunters, go Wraith. Tired of hunters being too close to you, go Behemoth. Tired of taking too much damage, go Kraken and mitigate. Tired of hunters being on your tail, go Goliath.
Then pick perks that will benefit you.
I’d rather they lowered the numbers on jp perks rather than give a counter-perk. Mainly because now if a monster takes the slow, all non-jp-perk-taking hunters are going to have basically no jp at all. I’m against balancing by introducing counters, I’m for balancing by tuning the power of what exists in the game already.
Haha the good ol days when Gorgon was able to do this exact thing with her Web’s.