Re-work Lazarus, he is potentially the most useless character in game


#1

The guy offers nothing at all, the idea of his Lazarus device is nothing more than a utility to troll any bad monster, if that monster knows what he’s doing though (and it’s not hard to counter laz) then it’s basically done, you can either just focus one person down and make sure they die, while they’re down/dead just look for Lazarus, he will be sniffed out or cloak will run out and as soon as that happens it’s finished, or if you really want to make it near impossible for Laz, just spread the damage around to everyone so you can down multiple people.

At-least with Val she can slow them down and Caira can heal her self when under pressure, cloak can be dealt with by sniffing them out and really paying attention, or just a simple flame breath to flush him out of it. Pretty much every game at level 35+ ends in total failure when I play with a Laz in the team. His kit is basically mundane to how the game works, sure the premise of Lazarus and preventing downed points is nice, but in practice…it’s just not going to happen.


#2

I’m looking forward to TRS taking a longer look at Laz as a character, I think that their intentions and the idea behind the character is completely solid, but how it works when a competent monster enters the fray is more shaky. The problem here is that the monster’s counters are too many and too hard, and the ability for Laz to use his ability too much determined by the actions and abilities of other people. Caira and Val can heal no matter what the monster and other hunters are doing, 90% of the time at least, but that percentage is swapped for Laz IMO.


#3

I think the main issue is that Lazarus has to be standing directly next to them, and since the monster will be hitting/using skills on the downed player/dead corpse then it will cancel the res and leave him fully exposed.

Medics never want to be in an exposed position and an easy target for the monster, the only thing I can think of to keep the lazarus device viable is to do something like turning his device into a beam (so like Val or hanks) that takes something like 5-7 seconds to kick in and res them, give it something like a 20-30m range and make it so being hit will cancel the res perhaps, just something like that so Laz can stay at range and still be effective because as it stands, melee resing for a Medic is suicide.


#4

Agreed that he relies to heavily on others, as just a competent Laz alone isn’t going to get the job done. He works best (in my opinion) when paired with Hank. By using the shield projector Hank can pull the heat off Laz, or at least give him time to escape, and split the monsters attention. A diligent Hank and Lazarus pair can keep a team up and running with no strikes, which is a huge bonus.

That being said, I generally avoid him whenever playing medic, because as you mentioned he simply doesn’t offer enough other than the glove to actually support the team.


#5

This is why the game hammers home the point that you’re meant to cloak and revive. It’s also why most people are calling for the cloak to be boosted in a number of ways for Laz.


#6

I think what can be done is, make Lazarus a strike-removing medic rather than a resurrecting medic. Makes it so that anybody in the team can res your teammate normally. But to remove the strike, it is required for the target and Lazarus to be standing still a good amount of time (8 seconds? idk). Would greatly improve the binary situation but still remain as Lazarus’ niche to be unable to heal and require people to go down for his glove to even have any use.

Thoughts?


#7

u wot
val can’t heal if the monsters is targetting her
shes helpless and must rely on the trapper or support to bail her out
if defended she is best medic
if not she is worst


#8

Going in to cloak and revive…wow, I bet no Laz has ever tried that before and got stomped.

As I said in my last post, going in for a melee res is suicide, you can cloak in all you like but if the monster is hovering around the corpse and throwing rocks/fire breath at the dead/downed target or someone currently alive (which is the easy and simple counter to laz) then Laz can’t do anything apart from watch someone else go down, once that’s happened it makes it even easier to find Laz and kill him because the monster has less damage pressure on him

Now sure you can say “just wait till the monster moves and/or till the hunter is dead”, yeah you can do that, just have fun with the monster sniffing out the laz to beat him to a pulp while the only heal he offers the team is his Healing burst which again…requires him to be in melee range to a degree, the only thing I could see the devs doing to his cloak is making him 100% invisible, lasts longer and ignores flame exposing him, but then that’s another balance issue.


#9

He was saying that Val can heal the hunters regardless of what the monster and Hunters are doing, where-as Laz can’t without exposing him-self in some sort of melee range and immediately taking the monster players “agro” if spotted.


#10

cloaks are weak in general
and definatly need buffs
the only thing there good at is changing monster aggro during dome fights

Too many glaring weaknesses to be good at anyhing else


#11

Your sarcasm is so welcome! I wasn’t telling you that you were wrong, you might want to take a breath before going passive aggressive on someone who is basically agreeing with you in the future? :smile:


#12

I’m trying to think of a way to make Lazarus on par with the other medics. But there is one fundemental problem with him: He’s hard to fight for new monsters due to lack of knowledge of his abilities (and how to counter him) but he is a joke to medium-high level players.

This huge difference in how a hero is percieved, does (unfortunately for TRS) often result in a big re-work of the hero. A good example would be Evelynn from League of Legends. Though first precieved as incredibly strong, players with some experience figured that placing sentry wards in strategic places would completely counter her. Both a change to the sentry wards and Eve herself were needed to make her playable and fun again across all skill-levels.


#13

Exactly this… It’s not just elements of Laz that need a tweak (I’m not a big fan of all these people saying to make the lazarus device something it’s not currently, it doesn’t need anything that drastic IMO), it’s elements of the game in combat itself that need to be fair game for changing too :smile:

Edit: The fact that Lazarus is something new monsters have to learn to counter suggests to me that it is the counters that can be employed that need nerfing, not anything about Laz being buffed.

I like the out of the box solution, but I think this would possibly make things worse, not better? Reviving takes longer, and with no heals on the ground (or much less at least) the reality is that you won’t all stay up long enough for Laz to remove strikes.

Let’s also remember that TRS have a lot of work invested in the character of Laz. Background story, voice over lines… he will always be a medic that can bring people back from the dead, if he couldn’t then the name Lazarus wouldn’t make much sense! The key is to make sure that Laz has a fair shout at bringing people back from the dead without it being too hard to put strikes on hunters for lower level play.


#14

Come’on. Don’t start arguing among each other. Take a look at my suggestion and criticize it instead.


#15

It’s a intresting idea, but i think it would stagnate the game for two reasons:

1: Standing still for 8 seconds means the monster is on the other side of the map and gained a full armor bar. It also makes it completely un-usable in combat.

2: It completely takes away any efforts the monster wants to make in permanently damaging the hunters. Right now, he can either get strikes on lazarus, camp the bodies till they decay or eat them. With your suggestion, only Lazarus is a viable target for dealing permanent damage.


#16

Sorry, sometimes I just can’t help my sarcasm lol, I know you wasn’t saying I was wrong but it just looked like one of those “Captain Obvious” quotes as if you was saying something people didn’t know.

I don’t think that would work at all, it would be very game-breaking and at the same time incredibly useless, 8 seconds for a non-downed point res would be too long and anything sorter (to match a normal res) would be fully broken to have no penalties, but then again I could be wrong…idk, the problem with this game is the balance is so easy to break.


#17

Awhile back I suggested that he could be given the ability to revive more slowly at range.

It would allow him to revive while dodging to more safely bring a teammate back to life, but he would give up his position while reviving.

I also wouldn’t be opposed to him being able to fully heal and remove all strikes from a Hunter on melee use on a living Hunter.


#18

I never really have that issue. Stay FAR outside of the battle, pepper the monster with your sniper for crit point support and stay out of the fight. If you are being attacked cloak. If your teammates die, wait until the monster moves on and revive them, then get back out of the fight. Do everything from the shadows, like a ninja.


#19

The amount of time needed is completely adjustable. I just pulled a number out of nowhere to start the discussion going. The good thing about this way of doing it is Lazarus and his striked teammate get to choose where to perform the deed instead. If it is too dangerous, just hold off for a while. It is actually more usable in combat than the current way of doing it when you think about it.

I would say it is going to be a different play style. It is likely that the team will end up with a lot of strikes during the combat (because Lazarus aint effective at healing). You may want to end the game right there and then, or risk having their strikes removed later on. It is really hard to see the consequences on paper but i think my suggestion opens up a lot of possibilities.

Actually, feel free to modify/add something to my suggestion if you feel that there is a flaw. Doesn’t mean it has to be cast in stone the moment I put it out. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Maybe the device can perform dual functions: res people in 2 seconds but with strike. Then you remove the strike later on (using the same device). It is more risky for Lazarus to go in and do the quick res but it gets the job done faster.


#20

Let’s look at it this way…

Why is laz hated at lower levels? People don’t know yet how to sniff out a cloaked laz, they don’t have the composure to put together a series of attacks that simultaneously keeps them safe from taking heavy damage (by standing in place for an orbital, for example) but also keeps them returning to a dead or dying body to disallow any kind of revive, they don’t know how to clear/scare hunters off a body long enough to eat it, and perhaps they don’t know even how to adequately focus down a medic.

Why do people hate playing with/as laz at higher levels? Because they have to use cloak much more intelligently (not cloaking in plain sight for a start), because they are often left completely exposed and in the middle of a battlefield once the revive is successful, because bodies being eaten sucks the fun out of the game for a laz player, and because as a non laz player on a laz team you are super squishy without certain compositions and it can take far too long for you to re-enter the fight, leaving you feeling pretty helpless and bored waiting for Laz’s slim chance to revive you.

There are other reasons that people might get frustrated on either side, but I don’t feel that they are, at their core, about issues with playing as or against laz.

So… buffing cloak? I’d say this can’t be done. it’d solve problems for high level laz’s being exposed after a rez, or being spotted by sniffing monsters with a keen eye, but it’d make the game far too hard for lower level players.

Changing the device’s purpose? As I’ve said above, changing the fundamentals of going to a body and revivifying it doesn’t make sense given the time TRS have put in to the concept on multiple levels. It’s not to say it can’t be done, but this would surely be the absolute last resort, and we’re definitely nowhere near that.

Changing sniper rifle? Why, it does what it does and it doesn’t impact on anything. All medics need something offensive so it’s not like you can swap this out.

Changing burst heal? Again, this is something some have said that’d help high level teams more survivable against good monsters, but once again it would completely screw up lower level games. You’d have a team that basically can heal almost as effectively as a val team despite him not really being a medic.

So… if we accept that lower level monsters just need to learn their skills a bit more, learn to combo, to be composed, then the balance is there or there abouts. What can we do to therefore make Laz viable in high level play?

For me the areas that have to be looked at are two-fold

1 Laz being too vulnerable post-revive
2 Laz being left helpless because a monster has eaten the body

On 1, if the way to bring laz balance was to make him less squishy if he’s doing his job right then I would say that successful use of his device should provide him with a very temporary personal shield effect. Longer cloak will only further imbalance him against lower play, whereas protecting him for a short period of time should go largely un-noticed by lower level monsters who may be too slow to even engage Laz before the shield is over or before he has disappeared into the distance again.

On 2, I’ve been very vocal everywhere about this (sorry to keep hammering on it!) but I think that Laz needs more control over whether bodies are being eaten. It’s all well and good saying “just co-ordinate as a team!” but if the monster has done the job right and spread the attacks and damage so that 2 or more hunters go down, Laz has zero opportunity to do his thing, and that’s frustrating. Val and Caira would have has the opportunity to keep 1 or more of those hunters standing, but because of the situation in play Laz doesn’t have the same opportunity and then is punished for it by high level players as they are almost entirely uncontested in eating up the remains.

A solution, in my mind, would be for Laz to be able to prevent any eating of either hunters, or even of any kind (could have interesting strategic implications) within a certain radius if his glove is equipped. This way he can’t be shooting, he has to be close, but he has the opportunity to ensure that bodies aren’t removed from play. In general this would mean very little in scenarios where only one hunter is down, if a monster tried to eat a hunter and couldn’t then it would know laz is nearby, but is more useful in situations where multiple hunters are downed and giving those few players remaining standing that slim chance to provide Laz with a window to use his ability.

The concern about this would be that it would be confusing at low level play, but I don’t know that low level monsters really have a successful time using the “eat the body” tactic anyway, so again I don’t think it’s a change that would ever be felt at low levels.

Any other issues I think are just fair game cat and mouse realities, or issues more to do with how well hunters work together. Laz players have to accept that if a monster is good and determined at kiting a body then that body is not going to get revived if the team around him can’t goad or push the monster away. The two above though, I think they are issues that can be quite easily resolved, and without breaking the game for those less skilled or knowledgable about the game.