And like everything else, they’ll quickly nerf them again. I seriously think the problem with this game isn’t exactly a matter of fine tuning and balance. There are some clearly questionably game design choices. My only support for this argument is the fact we have a constantly shrinking player base. That’s not just a balance thing.
I don’t really agree with this I think balance has been getting better. other then this last patch which I think hurt monsters to much.
I actually have to disagree, but that’s probably because we have different philosophies on what kind of encouragement is “good” or “bad” to force on the player.
Like others have said, it forces the game to end - these matches aren’t meant to go on forever, in fact their average game length is supposed to be something like 10-15 minutes. However, in the extreme scenario where the monster and hunters are very evenly matched, the monster player would prefer to attack the relay, try to get a down, and if it’s not working out, or if they actually do get one, then they can bail (because they made progress) before all their armor is gone (and the hunters make any progress).
The game timer is in place to mitigate the potential for a S3 monster from doing an extremely drawn-out hit-and-run attrition game where the hunters can’t leave the relay to stop the monster from fully re-armoring. If, for example, there was no game timer, then monsters could win at their leisure, and flee-till-3 would be a much greater preferred strategy since you can fight at the slightly increased maximum power of S3, with 2000 more armor, and there’s no threat of losing because you took your time to sneak everywhere. Obviously, this would be extremely anti-fun from the hunter perspective.
Right now, if you do this, then by the time you hit S3 after running around and being noncommittal, the timer will pressure you to fight and win in the next 2-4 fights. It still allows some hit-and-run space, but you can’t drag it out forever (let’s pretend you’re not playing a decoy wraith that sits far away and spams decoy to freeze the timer).
If it helps, killing hunters and eating them actually gives an enormous amount of energy towards the next evolve. I forget the exact numbers, but I’m fairly certain you get 2 energy for incapacitating a hunter, and another 2 if you eat them. That’s quite a thing in my eyes. Get a few downs and it’s like you just wrestled with several Tyrants and came out on top.
Tbh the timer and relay seem more like bandaids to force the match to end than part of the actual game.
Thats where well disagree. I dont think its good to use bandaids just to force the game to end.
From a game design standpoint, I support the decision to force the game to progress. Otherwise, people get bored of the same thing happening. Think about all those flee-till-3 wraiths that never ever fight ever. The running simulator is boring as hell; the standing simulator would be even worse.
From a lore standpoint, it does make a bit less sense than I would be comfortable trying to support, but I’m sure there’s some excuses you can make about it…
Like, I don’t know… the relay powered down for some maintenance, the monster broke in to the area and killed everyone (but it’s too weak to rip apart the annoyingly loud / whiny relay, so it goes to evolve), in order to repair the relay, they sent some mechanics behind your team. After 20-whatever minutes, the team succeeds in repairing it and the relay comes back online (becoming very dangerous to touch, let alone rip apart). The timer stops when combat happens because the team is easily distracted by the Godzilla deathmatch happening outside the window.
The relay is important because it relays power to the important building. Think about all of the maps, the relays are centered on important things for colonists: Water, power, food, resources, etc. I half expect a lumber mill somewhere down the road.
No what i mean by bandaids is that they are thrown into the game in order to force it to end, but dont fit well with the original design. Instead of the game ending by naturally pursuing the original objectives. I dont think that is good design at all.
It was part of the original design, so I’m not sure what you mean.
Yes, but they realized the monster could run forever. Instead of redesigning the objectives for hunt to create games that end quickly and force monsters to fight, they just put in a relay and a timer. So today we still have flee till 3 monsters and hunters who camp the relay.
From the big alpha, the design of the game (the intention of the developers of how the game should go) has been something like the following:
S1 monster is too weak to fight the hunters and win (usually). The hunters must hunt, trap, and kill the monster before it gets more powerful. The monster doesn’t want to fight, but the hunters can force the fight with the dome. (Bold because this comes up later)
S2 monster is strong enough to square off against the hunters. The hunters must hunt, trap, and kill the monster before it becomes too powerful.
S3 the monster is stronger than the hunters, and can easily fight them. Since the hunters should typically lose this fight, the hunters are discouraged from fighting. However, as devs, we can’t just have the tables turn and let the hunters play hide and seek with the monster. So we’ll create a single point on the map that only a S3 monster can destroy for a winning objective. That way, the monster can force a fight even though the hunters don’t want to.
The design of the game, in very short terms, is for the monster and hunters to fight (fighting is fun). The longer the game goes, the less the hunters want to fight the monster because of how powerful they get, so the relay is in place in order to force the hunters to continue to fight the monster.
Ive played the game since the big alpha too. I know the point of the mechanics. Dont treat me like im ignorant and ignore my point. Im saying the design decisions you listed dont work as intended.
Domes dont force fights, the monster can still run around in the dome. If domes forced the monster to fight flee till 3 would not be a strategy at all.
The stage 3 monster is not as big of a threat to the hunters as intended thanks to relay geometry. Hunters that want to play 100% safe can and will camp the relay and this works.
What Im saying is: There is no actual requirement for the monster to directly engage the hunters until stage 3. There is no actual requirement for the hunters to chase or fight the monster until stage 3. The only incentive to hunt is the damage/strike race, which flee till 3 monsters completely ignore and hunters will ignore more often on certain monsters like wraith. This kind of design leads to situations like this:
This is so odd…I just talked about this topic yesterday in another thread, but it seems relevant here. Before I re-post this, I will say that as a monster the timer has never been an issue for me because I can count the number of times I’ve gone to stage 3. I only go stage 3 if I have to or am forced to. That said:
Dude…the craziest thing happened. I was Wraith, and I was having a particularly good match against some hunters and managed to get a strike on every one while in stage 1, then I evolved and got a second strike on all and total deaths on 3 hunters in stage 2…but I completely lost the Support. I could not find him. I flew into the air and used Abduct to hover to survey the field of battle a couple times…nothing, and no tracks to sniff. I armored up and waited in the area until finally the dropship came.
So I have a bit of fun and soar up as far as I can go into the sky below the ship with warp blast and follow up with the abduct frozen animation, hovering there for 'em to see my face, LOLZ (I try to have fun, but not seem like a butt). When they were finally all on the ground I killed at least 2 quickly and the other two insta-split…again the support escaped when I focused the other hunter. Again I could not find him and by now I was getting tired of this and didn’t want the hunters to feel like I am doing this on purpose or something…so I evolve to stage 3 only so that I can attack the generator and call the support out.
I never like going stage 3 with wraith but while waiting I was able to grab an elite tyrant bite so I was full health and armor now with the hunters all on 2 strikes. The map was Aviary as well…the generator surrounded by all that water. I knew I had them and just wanted to fight it out for the win. But while waiting on the dropship it dropped the hunters somewhere else on the map and not by the generator. So, naturally I attacked the generator and finally shots rang out and hit me, so I followed, and followed, and followed some more. I have no idea what happened but when I finally found them and went for an abduction the Hunters Win appeared up top the screen, right as I snagged the trapper in my loving arms.
I was stunned. At first I thought I had won somehow, then realized that the timer had run out. Monster Failed to Destroy the Relay. I have never had to worry about the timer except as a hunter in those few matches where it comes down to that…so this was totally new and unexpected for me. How long does it take for the timer to run out while in stage 3 as monster? I know fighting stops the timer, but…did they really know not to hit me? I guess I made it pretty obvious I did NOT want the generator win since I struck it, then looked around, then hit it again, then looked around. How much time did I actually waste trying to sniff them out? I realize in retrospect I should have attacked the relay more rather than try to hunt for them but I hate relay wins unless it’s a real nail biter of a game and I HAVE to try for that route to victory.
Worse…did the hunters hate me for this game? I’d hate to think I was “that monster player” or something. I just like to fight, and I never pounce to end the rounds either.
Man I am kicking myself for this loss. It was totally my own fault. I was taken wholly by utter surprise.
Clearly I was outplayed. I should have been paying more attention and I will from now on, for sure. Since it was never an issue for me before I didn’t take it into account. I am a fighting monster and prefer to fight. It seems they knew this and baited me into wasting time.
I don’t really have enough experience with this kind of thing…after all this is my first time losing to a timer…but off-hand I will say this: I would like to see the match end in a Draw which would then lead to a re-match round IF BOTH SIDES AGREE.
On maps like aviary and wraith trap (and old dam) where theres a 360 view of the relay, some hunter teams will intentionally spread out to the 4 corners of the map and snipe you off the relay constantly without fighting you. Their intention is to run out the timer, and because they are able to spread so far on these maps going for one means you wont kill all 4 in time before the dropship comes. With goliah you can maybe down 3 and look to the sky for the dropship to find the last hunter.
That makes me really angry, actually.
Totally not trying to sound condescending, I’m just providing my side of the conversation. If you feel I insulted you, I apologize as all I was trying to address was the conversation topic. I realize I probably sounded condescending when I discussed all the individual power levels through the monster stages, but that’s just because I really like to talk about stuff and get in deep.
I must have misunderstood what point you were trying to make. So to get that straight, could you please rephrase what you meant? From what I read it sounded like you thought the timer and relay win conditions were bad game design because they only force the match to end. And that this is bad game design because they don’t fit with the original design, which is either the monster killing all the hunters or the hunters killing the monster. Correct?
I totally agree, and I hope TRS finds a solution to this so that flee-till-3 is less successful. Maybe they’ll even make the dome smaller? Smaller dome, less places to run, and it’s easier to land now… Just spit-balling, the idea just popped into my head but I wonder if it would be a good direction to consider.
Again, I completely agree. Back in th’ day, as we both know, S3 used to be a huge very scary monster that could slaughter hunters mercilessly. Now that the monster stages are much more streamlined, S3 is no longer this huge advantage (I would only really call it a slight advantage, to be honest). However, way back when the hunters needed to have some kind of tactical advantage in order to have a chance at winning, so it made sense that relays were typically in hunter-favored locations. NOW, however, since S3 is more toned-down, the tactical advantage hunters get from relay terrain makes them extremely powerful.
And we both wish it wouldn’t work so well.
Understood. I wish that incentive was enough to encourage the monster to fight the hunters, but it isn’t always (and in these cases, it’s boring as a hunter). I agree that there should be greater incentive for fighting, especially now that it’s relatively feasible even at stage 1.
However, I’m scared of, for example, creating other static objectives on the map the monster has to go to in order to evolve (like the suggestion for 3 relays - “the hunters still have to chase since they don’t know where the monster will be” but do they?). My fear is that the hunters could split up near these static objectives, knowing the monster has to go there, and that trap comps with Bucket, Markov and pals, would fortify these locations and trap the monster in stage 1 forever.
I just do not know what to do to encourage S1 and S2 fights (or, rather, force the fights without being cruel from a gameplay standpoint). Would it be a good idea or a horrible idea for the monster to be required to get 1-2 downs before they can stage up? Wouldn’t this encourage hunters to just wait at the relay on hunter-favored terrain? This would be a horrible idea, in my opinion.
So if we can’t have static map objectives, and we can’t tie the objective to the hunters, how can we force the fight without ruining the intended gameplay? Hunt, trap, kill. Run, feed, ambush.
Monster should lose. Said as a Monster and a Hunter player. As a monster it’d be stupidly easy to wait out the clock if it resulted in a draw.
So if I knew I was going to lose, I could just cheese? Nope. Leave it as is IMO.
I kinda gotta agree with thus one. If they have bucket and Markov for example, the monster can’t get anywhere near the hunters or relay without taking a quarter of his health in damage. The other day I was fighting thus team of hunters as behemoth, frankly the hunters were pretty bad as I got 2 strikes on most of them before I even got to stage 2. At stage 3 I had nearly full health and thought I was set, but then I got to the power relay just to see all the hunters camping. Hydes gas grenade and buckets turrets made it impossible to kill any of them or destroy the relay without taking an insane amount of damage. Eventually the time ran out and I lost.
The punishment Hunters receive for camping early is a full health stage 3 with plenty of time. Go in, fight, leave, get armor, repeat. If you’re not being chased and you’re high silver, you should be getting stage 3 in 6 minutes or less if there’s no pressure on you. Now you have 14 minutes to buff hunt, fight, and re-armor. You have that time to poke and prod the Hunters, looking for a weak point or weak link.
The timer-relay system is fine as is. If Hunters don’t fight, the relay dies - Monster win. If the Monster doesn’t fight, the timer gives it to the Hunters. If the Monster could run out the timer, he would every time. Ever tried killing a Monster in Arena when they just ran? Now imagine that, but across the entire mail.
The only time I had hunters camp the power relay from the start I was stage 3 in <5 min, by 7 min I had gotten full armor and went in for some strikes, and left before losing health with a solid 1 strike on trapper. And for the next 7 minutes I hit and ran, and then destroyed them in one final fight with them almost at max strikes.
Not hunting the monster gives it the ability to go to stage 3 in no time, then you get the joy of fighting full armor stage 3 monsters who have enough time that they don’t actually need to sacrifice health if they don’t want to.
Bad monsters try to win in one fight, and tend to die. Giving the monster an abundance of it’s most limited resource is a terrible idea.
The trick I see is what’s to stop hunters cheesing the monster either by super defense comp or by snipeing the monster to keep him off relay.