[Perk Removal Suggestion/Rant Included] Hunter's are relying more on OP jp perks than skill! Remove JP Efficiency/Thrust/Grounder


#1

Tinkerbelle is becoming a serious problem! It requires little skill, can counter most monsters, prevents hunters from “gitting gud”, and worse some hunters even spit salt after a cheesed game!

Imagine a game with a Tinkerbelle Cabot and Lazarus. That things already a solid pick against any monster! Cabot keeps on the highground and if the monster tries to kill him he just jetpacks to the next far highground or leap vertically while maintaining the dmg amp. If you try to go for Laz good luck because he is still easy to miss even if you could make it out he still has jetpack, 25% ms and the trapper, one blink and you’ll lose sight of him. Try to go for the trapper but the fact that they have a Laz would mean that you have to camp it’s body or else! Imagine doing that with squishies. Imagine a Sunny with an assault or trapper using Tinkerbelle, howd you reckon the monster to get away? Imagine a one man clutch as Rogue Val and all you have to do is leap vertically to survive that 20 secs before the team arrives? Imagine hunters saying “GG” after the game even though they cheesed it? Imagine hunters spilling salt feeling like they’re pro even though they’re not?

It’s a solid counter to some monsters! They could easily dodge Goliath’s abilities save for Fire Breath. If you decided to wait it out you’ll end up taking more HP dmg for a single strike. Against Kraken it might not seem that it would do much but it is still a great way to mitigate dmg because you are out of 3 of his ability’s range (Lightning Strike, Banshee Mines, Aftershock). Against Kelder? What would Kelder do all of his attacks are ground based unless you want to try your luck positioning his 1,2, and 4. Wraith can still manage it because of Abduct and Warpblast but let’s be honest, Wraith is underpowered af right now. Gorgon? Yes there’s Web Snare but that’s the only thing you have to worry about! Acid Spit and Spider Trap wont harm you in the air.

I would suggest that the following perks be removed!

Jetpack Flight Efficiency: Pubs are really abusing this and it is getting out of hand. Some even refuse to git gud saying that there’s no way to dodge the monster without this. (I am talking about Efficiency only perks, this exludes the Rocket King perk line)

Fly Swatter: With the absence of Jetpack Efficiency this mod should also be removed

Jetpack Thrust : These perks prove to be extremely problematic especially if coupled up with Recharge. This perk makes it a requirement for Kelder and Cthulhu to always bring Grounder or else none of their abilities will hit. By removing this perk Grounder must also be removed!

Grounder: With the absence of Jetpack Thrust this perk should also be removed.

The removal of these perks would make players learn how to manage their jetpack properly. With the absence of Thrust and Efficiency they will have to take Recharge which is more balanced and actually requires skill. Wouldn’t it be better if you dodged that Rock/Lightning/Warp because you know how to juke like a pro rather than beaming to the forest moon of Endor?

This will actually make some of the monsters more viable in pubs again. Plus the hunters will have to really use their skills to avoid the monsters. Learn when to dodge a Rock, managing well against Kelder’s bursts. Wouldn’t it be more fun? No bs for the monsters and more “dat pro juke feeling” for hunters. No more toxic hunters,

[I honestly think tweaking the numbers wont do anything! Removal of these perks wouldn’t affect good players, some of these perks shouldn’t event exist! Simply remove them!]


#2

Who would have thought changing the pace of the game to force more fughting would have caused just as many problems as legacy (I did actually).

Thanks to monsters and hunters being forced into a very specific playstyle this is what happens. Everyone is going to use the easiest win strats. Don’t think monsters aren’t above cheese either (see tumble lock)

At least in legacy you could choose to fight a different way if you didn’t like how things were going. Tinkerbell is a strat oriented towards dmg mitigation and wasting time. In a game where the monster has less time it is going to be a stronger strat. Against newer players that is. At higher level play the really good monsters don’t tend to have issues with it. So the whole hunters don’t need to “git gud” argument falls flat. Monsters also have to “git gud”. What you want is an easier game for monster not a balanced game.


#3

I’m just going to say I never use jetpack perks because I’m not a noob and know how to dodge effectivley


#4

Yes hunters should just stand and die.Anything else is op.

Tell me please,what other skill of mine will save me from a formula 1 goliath with 600dmg abilities and jumping the size of a three story building?

If anything,using your jetpack IS a skill,and thats called being outplayed


#6

I heavily disagree with the opinion of removing these perks.


#7

@ReissyBoi97 & @Misanthrope please be respectful of anyone on these forums, no matter how much one’s opinion may differ from your own.

Words such as “noob” are not needed here, as everyone was new at one point and everyone’s view is welcome. Try to maintain a civilized discussion and explain your reasoning in a language that isn’t offensive to the other person.

Please see also see the post that Shaner put up before: “We want new people to feel welcome, Evolve to thrive, our community to grow!”

You are colonists after all and need to show that we are a good community to anyone.


#8

I unno, I encountered some tinkerbells, wasn’t that much of a problem.


#9

I completely understand how frustrating these perk load outs can be to encounter for some people. Tbh, it borderlines on the edge of “toxic”. I get it.

But I do disagree big time that its “over powered”. Theres a number of draw backs to tinkerbelling that monsters can capitalize on, that make them downright not good perk load outs to utilize, especially compared to the power of other perk loadouts theyre giving up. In a lot of cases- Hunters could be MORE powerful in combat with more suitable perk sets. Its very unlikely you will ever see teams in competition playing seriously using these perk load outs for this reason.

Im down for having it adjusted personally, its not a necessary mechanic, its frustrating to deal with, which begs the question “why leave it then”. But certainly dont find it to be over powered.


#10

Let me set things straight. I have played against strong hunter premades and even good hunters on solo queue. They know how to maneuver with their jetpack, dodge abilities, and position themselves properly. I do not mind fighting and losing to those kinds of players because I know they outplayed me and they have the right to win. I have faced against good trappers and assaults who know how to do their job. What’s annoying is the amount of Tinkerbelle abusers and how toxic they can get.

I play as the hunter as well and I can manage myself without Tinkerbelle. Infact you do not need Tinkerbelle! You can play the game without it, get domed without it, survive the monster without, dodge abilities without it!

Here’s a sort of list as to how Tinkerbelle/Efficiency can be overpowered.

  1. Character abuse: Some characters can abuse this for an easy advantage (Cabot, Sunny, Rogue Val, Blitz Markov, Crow)

  2. Chase: Yes it’s the hunters job to kill the monster before it can evolve but being able to keep up with it halfway across the map is just wrong. Imagine Val’s Tranq Dart or Crow’s Stasis. They can constantly reapply the slow allowing the team to catch up before the monster can even recover. Imagine playing as Kraken being always forced to land and are unable to armor up because they can shoot you from afar. You can go for cover but there always isn’t a cave or structure to help you escape.

  3. Lowered skill requirement for hunters: I play as the hunter and I can assure you guys that I can juke Goliaths, Kelders, Krakens, Bobs, Gorgons, and a bit of Wraith because I know what to do against them and how to counter their abilities. What do Tinkerbelles do? Fly straight up! If you try to use Fly Swatter you will see that they’re still sticking to that one tactic, hold space bar. They’ll just wait for an opening or for the 2 secs tick to go off and go back up! They don’t know how to dodge, where to dodge, in fact they just run towards a direction even if it means they will get isolated from their team.

  4. Experienced Tinkerbelles: Sometimes they know to not jump 150m high but instead float around high grounds with minimal effort plus they know how to juke. This makes things a lot more harder! Good juking skills coupled with an extremely low JP cost. Imagine Bucket or Sunny always dropping deployables at that high sliver of a cliff that barely got in the dome.

  5. People rely on it too much: Seriously! I even played against players who claimed that “they wont be able to survive” without it or say “what do you want me to do tank your attacks?”. Did they even try to learn how to juke? Dodging Goliath’s Rock isn’t that hard if you know what you’re doing, same goes for Leap if you know where to dodge. With Kelder you have to know which things to take and which to dodge. Wraith? Walk aout of Supernova, wait a second and dodge to clear out of abduct, dodge away from Warpblast and shoot the decoy first. You don’t need Efficiency perks for that, you just need to know what to do. You can watch vids and tourneys and you can see that no one uses Tinkerbelle and is still able to survive against the monster. What’s do Tinkerbelle’s say? “What do you want me to do stand and die?” No! I want you to git gud!

There is simply no nerfing Tinkerbelle! The only other option is for TRS to remove perk stacking (which I doubt). Besides removing it will also address some of the reasons why specific monsters are lack luster.

  1. Goliath : You don’t need JP perks to deal with his kit. If you constantly get pummeled by the Rock then you’re doing something wrong. (Try strafing to the left, then thrust to the right), (when he is coming for you thrust towards him and admire as he leaps directly over you), (Flame Breath and Charge are always easy to hit abilities but if he connects charge with a rock circle around him then dodge outwards, with leap charge to where his back is pointing)

  2. Kraken : His problem is that people can easily dodge out of his combo especially with the new perks. Also he is extremely vulnerable during the post-dome chase he loses too much health and usually has little breathing room to make it to stage 3 (solely because of the post dome chase chip dmg he receives). Take JPEff, JP Thrust as well as Fly Swatter and Grounder and he’ll be okay. Possibly some tweaks with the numbers but it would be better than his current state.

  3. Gorgon : Her skillset is meh. And most of her dmg can be mitigated by simply hovering around. With Tinkerbelle she wont be able to deal significant dmg at all. Remove those perks and she could fare better now! Some tweaks with her Web Snare and viola!

  4. Wraith : I can say that she is unaffected by these perks because of her kit but she still needs a rework.

Of course if hunter JP perks are removed then the monster variants should be as well! Some perks weren’t needed but they were given, some perks shouldn’t exist but they exist as a band aid to counter other perks. Simply take them away and be over with this.


#11

A tinkerbell implies full capacity loadout.That means you need about 20 seconds for jetpack to refill including delay since you dont have recharge

I think your 1500 damage burst on some monsters don’t need more than that to down someone

Not to mention someone with tinkerbell has 0 chasing ability


#12
  • tinkerbell
  • not op but extremely frustrating to play against
  • very easy to use to cheese melee monsters.
  • very strong out of the dome, post chase or catching up to monsters. Especially now with the new Solo Benefit.
    • Give this strat to Parnell who has a realy good presure kit, or any support with Val and trappers and it because a hot turd of a racing match.
  • Grounder
  • the set has been nerfed properly I guess, their duration is now just 2 seconds which doesn’t benifit most monsters anymore due to abilities actually taking longer to wind up than that.

#13

We can make deal,remove jumping and flying on all monsters,then remove the perks.
How exactly can i play lennox vs kraken without jet pack perks? Shoot it with 1dps gun? kek


#14

How so? Tinkerbell’s the worst perk for speed and mobility/map crossing. Flying straight up is probably slower than walking and while you can climb obstacles faster, you’ve got much much less boosts if you do.
It’s probably the worst of the jetpack perks for chasing. Thrust perks or movement perks or even all the Rocket Perks are much, much better for the chase.

Only Behemoth and Gorgon, really. Wraith doesn’t struggle much at all vs Tinkerbelle and any good Goliath can use air control very very easily. Literally one smack and they’re out of the sky. Rocks will either hit or force them to burn more fuel, and your leap lets you get a smack in very easily if you climb something beforehand.

Plus, if you’re focusing someone properly, they cannot get off the ground. Constant knockback stops it.

So Tinkerbelle is really, really not all that good if you know how to play against it IMO.


#15

@dnc That doesn’t mean that you have to use the whole tank in one go. What most people do is hover high enough out of reach until the monster switches attention then descend. After switching attention it would be hard to know where exactly he landed. You also don’t know if he still has some juice left. Also let’s say you did manage to land a combo at he manages to escape (Shield Burst/Heal Burst) that would mean that a whole combo that you did was wasted. Usually the people who are using this are the supports and medics. This means I either focus the trapper or assault. What if support is Cabot landing a sure Dmg Amp at you. If you try to disengage he has the highground advantage and can maintain the beam. What if Medic is Rogue Val then they have a surefire way to cheese a 30 second drop ship. What if Trapper is Maggie/Griffin and is constantly impeding leap attacks? Let’s not forget about the assault that has been working with that dmg amp. It isn’t only tedious it also shifts the domes to the hunters favor. By the time the dome drops it’s possible that the monster took all of those HP dmg for a strike on Trapper only sometimes no strikes at all. How would that carry towards stage 3 and the rest of the domes?

Also Tinkerbelle doesn’t have to chase. As I stated before Give Crow or maybe Val the setup and let them shoot at the fleeing monster from up high. It will greatly decrease the monster’s mobility allowing the team to catch up! They can also prevent the monster from feeding/regaining armor.

@Azmi_Anuar Exactly! But Tinkerbelle in domes can hurt the monster in terms of strikes. If they successfully managed to mitigate a strike inside a dome then the post chase would be gg for the monster. He would take too much HP dmg for a confident stage 2 fight. If the same things happen on stage 2 then there is no hope for stage 3.

@Alucard_Shadow I have played Kraken against Lennox and her bloody Auto-cannon is no joke. Also it’s your trapper’s job to try to shoot me off the sky. Griffin and Maggie are problematic to deal with as Kraken. Also any hunter with a slow can shoot me off the sky and ruin my “tempo” (Val, Crow)

@Mt_Everett Give Crow, Val, any hunter with a slow and constantly shoot at the fleeing monster. The only way for it to make distance is with traversals and if all traversals are lost the rest of the team could catch up easily. Monster cannot eat/rearmor. Will take constant chip dmg without cover. Normal walk wont get you anywhere.

There’s still the fact that Behemoth and Gorgon can get countered by it. It’s effects isn’t only seen in dome but out as well. In dome it’s a way for the hunters to mitigate dmg while the monster is soaking up. Even if you get the strike what about the chase? Most of the games I play have 2 sometimes even 3 people using Tinkerbelle! It’s really getting out of hand.


#16

Actually all he needs to do is burst traversals around some sort of large corner and bang, suddenly you’re in the air feeling stupid with half a tank of fuel and no line of sight, and within a few seconds he’s back to normal with traversals ready and has his belly being stuffed with yummy mammoth bids again while you try and catch up.

Yes, if it was flat ground, Tinkerbelle would let me constantly shoot from ridiculous distances. But the game is filled, packed, with LoS blockers and large cliffs and turnarounds and just basic geometry that prevents this in many places. [quote=“8BitCardinal, post:15, topic:99352”]
There’s still the fact that Behemoth and Gorgon can get countered by it.
[/quote]

I agree with that. Unless it’s level 3 Tongue Grab, Behemoth’s fucked. And even then it can be dodged.

Gorgon can just fly up and Web Snare, or apply Web to begin with which is very effective, but once you’re up Web Snare’s too slow and Gorgon’s hopeless.


#17

I really don’t get why people complain so much about this “tinkerbelle” thing. Have you ever seen this in an finals ESL match? No? Because it’s 0 vs a monster that’s worth his salt. And taking all those perks removes sooooo much from a hunter’s potential. Play a bit more, learn how fast they run out of juice. Really not hard to counter. Let them Tinkerbell away, I say. Everytime i meet people that are trying to float, i can only say in my head “awwwwww, that’s so cute”. And then they fill the monster evolve meter.


#18

You mean the three competing monsters?

I think it’s not so difficult to deal with too, but comparing esl right now is just a waste of energy. Esl has as much activity as an aging donkey.


#19

Tbh I didn’t watch ESL lately but don’t tell anyone. I hardly imagine they use these perks anyway. When playing hunter with experienced people nobody uses those, when playing monster and meet tinkerbelle…it’s just funny.


#20

Remove all perks on both sides and see people searching for a new scapesgoat.


#21

Yeah, I feel the same.

I don’t think Tinkerbell is overpowered. Some people just don’t know how to deal with it. Grounder is a band-aid balance attempt for Kraken but just toxic on all the other monsters.

Overall I feel like the negative effects of both perks overweight the positive ones. Personally I wouldn’t shed a tear if both were gone. I don’t use either anyway because both are stupid IMO.