One fix to balance all healers, nerf Caira


#1

Don’t go all beserk just yet, hear me out. Who is our go-to medic because she is the only medic that heals enough? Caira. What medics do we feel cannot live up to Ciara? All of them pretty much…

Yesterday we tried to test something out. If a stage 2 Goliath takes two points in 3 skills going up against a Caira with Capacity for example, you can barely outdamage her healing. Where all other healers really lack against focus healing I feel that the best way to boost all other medics is to watch the strongest healer as well…

So what makes Caira good? She can do steady healing AND she can heal multiple targets for the same health. You kinda heal near someone and they get healed. Easy as that… BUT this is too strong. Nerfing Caira a little on AoE healing and she will be much more on-par with the other healers.

So easy fix:

  • Introduce a similar concept to mini-nukes where the most healing is
    done on a direct hit, and down to ~75% healing is done on the outer
    edge of the heal. Still healing, but not as much. This will make wall
    heals less effective.
  • It might look like this
    75%--------------100%–105%–100%--------------75%
  • Boost her initial hit damage, and keep the fire tick over time. If
    Caira can actually produce some damage as a healer she will have more
    downtime on the healing making her effective healing ‘less’
    effective. That the initial fire grenades (almost?) do no damage, it’s kinda strange.

We are trying to make all healers on par with Caira. Once all monsters are balanced we can either get all healers to the skill of Caira, OR lower Caira’s effectiveness a little so the others become better as well. We are only taking Caira because she is so fool proof and get tons of healing in. It removes any skill. Tone her down a bit more, make her shots a little more skill based with radial hit detection and picks like Val, Slim and Lazarus will be more balanced.

That…

or boost all other healers so that they are actually on par with Caira.


#2

You know I think we’ve all just accepted Caira for the standard Medics should pertain to. Maybe that was wrong.

Add that to any Support with AOE cloaks/Shielding/jetpackboosting AND shielding and you have a major issue. Add all that to the fact that it’s ridiculously easy to kite a Goliath Wraith or Behemoth and you have a big problem.


#3

I don’t know maybe she could do a little less healing. I wouldn’t want a major nerf on her. I still think the other medics need to come up a little and her down a little.


#4

I was thinking this exactly. Like Slim and Val kinda feel as the same skillrange for me. Lazarus as well, but Laz is Laz… :stuck_out_tongue: Different game with him. Caira basically is the healer that is most constant and requires the least amount of skill. Give this healer to a great player and people will not die basically. Slim can be countered, Val can be countered. You can only hope that caira misses, or you keep her busy so she can’t heal anyone else. It’s not really a strategy.

I vote that we look at Caira for once, and maybe conclude that she is the problem herself at the moment. That she actually is OP, making the others UP, only because she is too effective.

All medics can do damage, or have utility. Caira cannot, by boosting her damage so even Caira can get 3000 damage in a match on average is important. I rarely get 1500 against good monsters in a match. By increasing damage output, she will be lured to shoot fire grenades giving monsters more room to trick hunters as well.

By keeping her direct healing the same HPS as before, it takes more focused shots from the Caira player. So monsters can force themselves between Caira and the hunter and reduce healing done for example. I feel that everyone receiving the exact same heal is too strong. I want that on Val as well… Using the med gun and healing people around that target as well. Even 20% would be nice. But she won’t.

Simply by including more skill to her play decreasing her heals on the outer edges of her healing grenades AND improving her damage for less focus healing will tune her down by a littlebit, effectively boosting all other medics.


#5

The more I think about it the more it seems likely…


#6

Agreed wholly. Caira by herself is a capable healer but isn’t a super threat; but get a good Caira with the right perks and you’re going to be competing mostly against her. Lastly throw Hank in there or a good Sunny and its their game to lose.

This sounds like it has promise. Despite my complaints against Caira its important not to nerf too much. I feel any amount of drop-off, even at the outer edges, might help balance substantially. This won’t change how Caira heals herself since that’s mostly point-blank anyways, but it would make healing at a distance much harder and actually give Val some value again.


#7

Plus, kiting is so easy vs ever Monster but Kraken…Kiting + Caira + Any Support and it’s just painfully unfair.


#8

The fact that the only healer viable to go with Cabot at the moment is Caira rings an alarming bell for me. Remove the shields from support (so bucket or cabot) and what healers can win them a match?

The second Slim get’s focused he is screwed, he can hold out pretty long, but his lack of focus healing is really bad.
Val does good focus healing, but cannot get a team up fast, she counters this with utility basically getting less damage in (but not against a Kraken… which is utter BS, but ok…).

Lazarus could be a good pick, only for being Lazarus and being too easy to counter.

Caira can be picked in any combo and still is good. There is no catch with Caira. Maybe if the 5th monster is a flying monster then Caira is bad. If not… she will still be the best medic.


#9

I like the idea of how the father away you are from where the gernade landed the less heals you should get it. Like, if two people want all those AOE heals it comes at a risk of grouping together for a monster AOE attack. I read somewhere as well that in a recent Evolve Tournament Caira was choosen 19/20 times… Come on now, I think that speaks for itself lol


#10

No.Just.NO

How bout you make all the other medics get up to PAR. Think, if she is the ONLY viable medic, do you think debuffing her will HELP???

Best suggestion is to make the others her equal.


#11

Which is why I say instead of completely nerfing Caira or making every other medic as good as her we see a compermise and get somewhere in the middle. Buff the other medics so their a bit more viable and nerf Caira a bit so she’s at their level. Just how I see it.


#12

This is the best option, making her Slim tier is a bad idea. Buffing the others and nerfing her a bit is an excellent course of action.


#13

She is the only viable healer because everyone is picking the BEST healer out there. It’s the same as saying… yeah Sunny pre nerfes was the only viable Support to go with. Yes, because she was the best goddamn support out there :stuck_out_tongue: They nerfed her, made her easier to counter and voila here we are. I still don’t hear the masses complain about her.

You aren’t giving any suggestion, or why it is good. You are defending Caira with the same depth as people defended Sunny.

The other healers will still have their personal problems that they already have at the moment and these still need to be fixed. We are simply adding up the experience from what happened the last few months. And as you say, Caira might need to toned down a little without giving up on her possible HPS, introducing more skill and more damage as a tradeoff.

Quite litterally re-balancing Caira again.

This does NOT exclude boosting the others in fields that they need strength. Slim still needs heals at long range that he lacks. Val still doesn’t do enough focus healing and when she tries the clip runs out too quick. Tranq is a little too long and does jack shit against Kraken players. Lazarus isn’t flexible enough on evasion.


#14

I just don’t understand why TRS has done so little to her. She is by far the most popular choice for pro level play and buffing the other medics to her level (If they really could with how their kits are compared to hers) it’s only making the monster side of things harder then it needs to.


#15

@MacMan Can you tell us how you guy’s are looking at this situation, if you actually considered nerfing Caira, or if you prefere boosting the others untill they are as effective as Caira? Because it seems that whatever you do, Caira will still be favorite because of her strengths. And mosters that absolutely wreck Caira teams, I play Slim against. Messes them up completely, but then you feel why Slim isn’t the better pick. In tons of situations Slim isn’t effective, Caira still is.


#16

I can see how some people may be opposed to nerfing Caira, but I guess Caira is an outlier simply because unlike other medics she performs exceptionally well while the others are just lacking. This shouldn’t justify Caira, and it shouldn’t justify leaving her as-is until the others are fixed. If Caira is the only current viable option then it just means it is that much more important to ensure she is balanced.


#17

Nop.

Caira’s healing is worst compared to Val’s.And no good hunter team will ever group up so Caira can benefit from the splash heal.If u do that and both of u get a lvl 3 rock gg.

What people need to realize is that Caira is the only medic who can efficiently heal herself.That’s the ONLY reason she is viable.Val has a much better tool-kit than Caira.And faster healing.The thing is that Val can’t protect herself.As long as the medic can’t protect himself Caira will always be number 1


#18

Cairas heals also go through walls


#19

Well not big walls tho.But still the point remains.Caira can heal herself.Others can’t.That’s it


#20

You raise a very relevant point - that the recent adjustments trying to balance out usage are trying to make the other medics more viable, instead of reducing Caira down to equivalent usage with the others. The question I have is whether she can be nerfed selectively without effectively destroying her utility, because a lot of her utility comes from her design itself - the way she heals as opposed to simply how much.

Val and Caira are ranged medics - they heal in combat by staying away, forcing the monster to visibly come to them to heal. This is a stronger defensive position versus monsters that wisely focus the medic.

Laz and Slim are close-range medics - their utility is maximized by getting in close, at least temporarily.

Val and Laz are single-target medics - their main heal during combat focuses on a single individual.

Caira and Slim are multi-target medics - their main heal during combat can heal multiple allies, including themselves.

Caira simply represents the combination of long-range and multi-target healing in a single medic. Tweaking her numbers will not change this aspect about her.

The main aspect about Caira that stands out from the others is she can heal herself rapidly without requiring targets like Slim does. Her self-healing tankiness has already been nerfed at least once; it’s unclear if it can/should be nerfed again. doing so would remove a major difference from the other hunters, though.

I won’t pretend to have all the answers; this is mostly framing the question. However let me pose another potential fix to Caira’s kit:

  • Change Caira’s Healing Grenades so that some of their healing on affected targets is applied immediately, and the rest is done as a Healing-Over-Time (HOT?) effect over the next few (4-6?)seconds. A single grenade on a target will do the same healing as it does now. Each additional grenade spammed on the same target will do less healing because the HOT effect will not go any faster. This will have the effect of reducing Caira’s “Tanking” effectiveness for herself and teammates to a hopefully managable level - which also reduces that aspect which separates her from Slim.

EDIT: Ironically this suggestion actually makes sense because it matches the Napalm grenade aspect of her kit - which is small damage plus more DOT. Having her be both a DOT and HOT medic would be fairly appropriate.

Thoughts?

-Wrecker