My Opinion on the Crow and Lennox Changes


#1

TL;DR: I don’t like them.

With the coming changes to Crow and Lennox in the Micropatch I’ve grown a strong distaste for the future of my favorite characters. I honestly completely hate what’s being done to them. The thought of taking the most skill based Hunters in the game and making them more user friendly is a ridiculous notion to me. The changes effectively nerf the characters for those who can use them correctly.

###Lennox
With Lennox, the changes make the high burst damage she has now and drops it by almost 400 damage. The max hit damage is null to me. A drop from 360 to 300 doesn’t sound like a lot, but in reality it’s massive. That missing 60 damage at max stacks up really quickly. In just 4 hits I’m missing 240 damage. That’s absolutely massive.

Instead of making the first two hits do more damage, make the range on the Lance longer and increase the amount of time it takes for you to lose the now highly inaccurate multiplier. I’m absolutely fine with a reduction in damage if you did this. It seems to me like a fair trade off while the changes in the Micropatch don’t seem reasonable at all.

In conclusion, my final thoughts are this; The changes effectively nerf the character. Less damage is less damage, no way of getting around that. Sure, the first two do more damage now, but that doesn’t mean anything when I can easily hit 4x 5 times over.

###Crow
These changes I hate the most. A reduction in charged stasis time is not needed at all. Eight seconds is barely enough to pull a Kraken down, six will most definitely not be enough. The increase in the single shot is also something I highly disagree with. With the current state of Crow, the split second decision to charge or shoot is a big thing on my mind. It’s the difference between life and death sometimes, the increase makes it a lot less of a huge decision.

The increase in radius of the charged shots is also a ridiculous notion to me. When did accuracy decide to get thrown out the window? What happened to understanding the game so you know how to always land the shot? Seriously, why change this? How hard is it to land the shot? If can average over 4mins of stasis now, why would I need a buff to make that easier to do?

The same thing about accuracy can be said to the KLR. Sure, the gun does have spread, but when it comes to shooting a giant Monster, I see no need to make it easier to be accurate.

In conclusion, my final thoughts are this; The changes being made make him easier to play and remove a lot of the skill involved with this character. Making it easier to land shots on a character who has always been about accuracy is a rather ridiculous notion to enforce. Crow is a high risk, high reward, high skilled character and that shouldn’t change. He should still be that kind of character, but with the changes, all I see is that being burned away.

I’m looking for conflicting opinions on this, so please say what you want.


#2

Now you know how I feel about Torvald…


So you guys have been talking the next Micropatch lately
#3

This game shouldn’t be balanced around new players, it causes a lot more problems in competitive play for that being the case.


#4

what did they do to Torvald to make him easier?


#5

That’s the problem here, it’s not just for you, it’s for everyone who plays as Crow.
TRS could be doing this for a number of reasons:

  • To help the majority of people, that struggle to land hits with him
  • Make Crow a more viable choice of Trapper compared to other go-to choices

I don’t mean to come off as being rude or hostile but to me it seems you’ve overlooked the reason for this change simply because you are already good at playing as Crow and this will make it easier for you. However, like I said before, this is about the majority of the community not one individual.


#6

I don’t (as I said in the other thread where this discussion kind of already happened) understand why it is such a bug bear for you. If they were removing the benefits of being skilled with these characters I’d get your viewpoint, but that’s not what’s happening.

yes the changes nerf the characters, because there has to be some kind of upper limit to how effective they are. If a character, in the hands of the right person, can perform over and above normal expectation and is benefited too much for that then it makes certain players OP. For the benefit of the game, and the experience for all, good players using skill rewarding characters have to be capped in just how much they can impact on a game.

No it doesn’t, it drops it by 20 over the course of 4 hits, and actually increases her burstyness from earlier. If you can then hit multiple max-stacked hits then yes you’re removing a bunch of damage, however a) most players won’t achieve this and b) see above about capping just how effective skilled players can be with a mechanic.

Only for a very select few such as (you believe) yourself. For everyone else it’ll be either inconsequential or it’ll be a buff, especially when facing monsters like Wraith, Kraken and Gorgon.

You’re personally utterly invested in the character and it’s worth stating that before you discuss this. You love Crow as a character and that unconsiously or not will bias your viewpoint. I love Griffin as a character and every change to him makes me instinctively hate what’s happening… this doesn’t mean it’s not for the best :slight_smile:

Sure, it’s not long enough if you keep the exact same cycling routing but it is long enough if you continue to keep Kraken perma-stasis’d

Right now people aren’t using the single shot because their aim isn’t good enough to benefit from the slight slow it brings. Increasing the quick stasis duration allows the gun to be used more naturally within the playstyle that was originally intended which is to use quick stasis to help stall the monster long enough to save a player in the heat of the moment, and to set up the longer shot.

[quote=“Shunty, post:1, topic:85614”]
The increase in radius of the charged shots is also a ridiculous notion to me. When did accuracy decide to get thrown out the window? What happened to understanding the game so you know how to always land the shot? Seriously, why change this? How hard is it to land the shot?[/quote]

From a “skilled character” point of view, them changing this doesn’t stop your skill from counting so other than having a somewhat hipster like “It’s only cool when I can do it” vibe, I’m not sure why it matters to you?

You answered yourself above, the long stasis being shortened means that you need to sacrifice your current weapon cycling. People less skilled are being helped out, people that always hit their shots are being given a slightly harder time of it… but tbh you could always hit your shots and so the situation for you personally is not really being affected at all.

Crow isn’t, despite your personal efforts, winning enough or getting picked enough. Usability is key, initially, for him to get players to want to get on board with playing Crow more. Again, this doesn’t affect you because your aim is already fine, but it does bring up the lower levels to make Crow viable for them.

They remove some of the skill involved, absolutely. When firing stasis at Kraken who will be more long range, it’d be good for everyone playing the game if Crow could more reliably land those shots and actually bring some CC to the game. Not everyone can play with you Shunty, and the game owes it to ALL players to have Crow able to perform reliably.

But despite the somewhat avid stance against the changes to Crow, you’re not being helped a terrible amount, and you’re not being hurt a terrible amount either… so I have to wonder why you’re so upset about it?


#7

What kind of bad Monsters are you facing, that allow you to hit them that often? In actuallity, I believe, since the damage of the 4th hit is lower and the damage of the first much higher you will have the Monster much more often be willing to ignore Lennox, as resetting the multiplier is not as rewarding as now. That would result in more damage.

In 4 hits you make 900 damage in 8.0 and in 8.1. (There is a typo in the patchnotes btw) What you mean is 8 hits. Besides against newbies I dont see that very often. And they kind of needed it.

I actually agree with this one. Currently Lennox is pretty shut down by Kraken. Even when he is on the ground, an Aftershock will most likely reset any multiplier. With 8.1 the range of AS is 12 meters, so why not have the Lance range be 12.5 meters?

Maybe they changed it to 1.33, 1.67 and 2.00? They are still waiting for the visual artists to do some work on 8.1.

Well, bad monsters. Nothing else to say to this.

It has been identified as one of the reasons why so many new people are quitting so soon. The skill floor for most characters is just too high. They learn too slow, they loose too much, they quit too soon. Its that simple.

Because with 6 seconds you need to do it more often. Though, I do not agree with the 6 seconds change either.

You are not always fighting behemoth and Crow mostly stays far away. A happy trigger finger results in missing up to 5 shots a magazine against a Wraith. Even jetpack-chasing and firing at a Behemoth can result to that.

Just curious at this point if you too would rather have 4 Mortars with 200 damage than 5 with 160 damage.


#8

You can argue “A good lennox will…” As much as you like- But cant someone EQUALLY argue “A good MONSTER willl…” as well?

A good monster will NEVER let a good lennox get 4 stacks. One melee hit, a quick traversal away for a couple of seconds- Thats all it takes, and thats what ANY good monster will do. I can understand the concern, but against good monster- This will buff lennox, a lot.

This argument for lennox is a 2-way street, and both sides of the coin should be considered. Ive never seen a good monster that didnt actively wipe lenny-stacks the entire fight, unless/until they were guaranteed to get a down. Having to redirect 1 melee every few seconds (and with plenty of abilities, you dont even have to do that), isnt that detrimental- Considering the pay off in damage reduction you get by doing so, “for good monsters”.

As for crow- Keep in mind theres other factors involved here too. Keep in mind people are playing with joysticks, keep in mind people are probably (and please dont be offended by this), playing at a higher level than you, and keep in mind- People are, in reality, playing with latency.

I wanted to ask if you are aware of the contradictions these opposing statements make. You reference how easy it is to do stasis already, you reference how you can keep a monster stasis locked for a very, VERY long time on average- And then question why theyre considering lowering the impact of stasis duration on the high-end?

If you ask me- this is exactly why theyre looking at tweaking how stasis works with crow in regards to his rotation.

Thats just the thing- Theyre doing both. Crow isnt seeing the reductions hes seeing because of new players. Theyre seeing it because they know how powerful crow is on the top end. On the FLIP side, theyre addresing the things that also hold him down on the LOW end. Hes getting changes from BOTH sides of the fence.

Lennox, like wise, is seeing the same thing. Yes new lennox players have a hard time getting 4 stacks. But on the FLIP side, GOOD MONSTERS dont let good lennox players get 4 stacks either. Getting, and maintaining 4 stacks, usually happens because a) there is a experience discrepancy between monster/lennox, or b) the monster says “ef it yolo 420 swag swiggity wooty imma get a DOWN on this booty”, and doesnt care about the couple seconds of extra damage.


#9

It’s because of the skill drop. I despise it. And no, I won’t have to worry anymore than I do now about my cycle. One charged shot, 4 KLR shots, Gobi, Another charged shot. Rinse and repeat.


#10

The first statement is purely in reference to the increase stasis time of the single shot.


#11

Every other assault plus defensive supports are getting their damage toned down in the micropatch and especially in the TU9. It’s just moving away from the old bursty meta of the game.

They probably nerfed the damage on the plasma lance again because they don’t want to nerf her AA canon too hard, because she needs it against Vanilla Kraken who will fly more in the future and Wraith the pimp slap queen.

They compensated the lower overall damage by giving slightly higher damage on the first two hits, because lets face it we’re not going to get max hits all the time and its especially the case for lower tiers or facing against flying or pimp slapping monsters. So overall the nerf to the max damage gives more damage consistency overall on the ground.

My only problem with the Crow changes is the reduced slow time, two seconds may not be much but in combat it does addup.

I don’t mind the changes to the other stuff because Crow is very easily the hardest trapper for players to get into, high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling compared to the other trappers.

I have gotten used to the old slow flying shots and it going back to that similar speed will be something that I can get back into quickly, I’m just happy that more people are going to be able to pick him up.

The Gobi nerf was a long time coming, it should’ve been nerfed months ago.


#12

I am aware of the differences in your statements and the context of what each was talking about. I was not intending to quote mine, nor twist/misrepresent what you said. Strawmen do nothing for arguments- But I couldnt help but notice how you state that you average over 4 minutes of stasis, after commenting in the same comment, that you dont feel a reduction in stasis charged time is needed.


#13

Because I don’t. As @Sepiablitz, @niaccurshi, and @xPredators have said, I’m an outlier.


#14

@niaccurshi I’ll get back to you and your points once I’m home. Same goes for @Sepiablitz.


#15

Yeah his Mortars are getting a huge damage redux. It sucks because I only land 60-80% of them. About 20-30~ of my whole clip will hit, and that’s only when the monster is climbing or flying up a wall.


#16

Well then, you literally have nothing to worry about other than being part of an exclusive club that is becoming less exclusive :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit: Also, I have no idea if you’re an outlier or not. I have no idea if your propensity is due to something other than your skill. I’m just taking you at your word since I can’t do anything else.


#17

I understand that you dont.

Which is why I was merely pointing out the contradiction in stating its not needed- When you also acknowledge that you are capable of doing it for a long time. If you are capable of keeping a monster in stasis for the majority of the time theyre engaging- So are other people. Thats a pretty darn clear indicator that he might need some adjustment for how he does at the high end of things, no?

At the high end- Good crows have no trouble keeping a monster in stasis 100% of the time while they are engaging, because of how the duration of a charged stasis shot interacts with his natural weapon cycling time/rate. Crow is very easily capable of opening with a charged stasis, emptying 2 clips, and landing another charged shot- All without skipping a beat. Good damage? Check. Permanently in stasis while engaging, with little the monster can do about it otherwise? Check.

They want to interrupt that cycle. Make it so that crow has to trade a smidge more than he does now (damage)- If he wants to keep a monster permanently stasis’d.


#18

Maybe I’m actually looking at this wrong. The points I’ve read are rather convincing that I’m wrong, but I’m not %100 sure.


#19

You sir, have just earned my respect.

I dont think anyone is “100%”- I tend to think its on the right track when i weight the context of what happens, but im not 100% either. Which is why Ill wait and see. Worst case, they can change it again :slight_smile:


#20

I guess my real problem has to come down to making Crow easier to land shots with. Accuracy is a skill and should be taken into account when changing a character. I’ve learned every bit of Crow and understand what I have to do to land shots over and over again. That’s the main thing I don’t agree with. Making it easier to land a shot, I really don’t like.