Monster Balance Discussion Thread


#1

A while ago I posted a thread that attempted to discuss whether Monsters have been overnerfed, which can be found here.

Its become a bit of a balance discussion thread, and after reading much about people saying how stressful playing the Monster can be now, I made this thread to discuss what ought to be done for the monsters regarding certain strategies, such as dome-holding, to recent nerfs, like the knock back nerf on PC. TL;DR Feel free to discuss your balance ideas for Monster, or vent your anger. This thread is here for you.

For my own opinion, as I play often against bots, I have not seen or experienced much. But I have heard that there is a lot of stress to playing Monster nowadays. I have heard that at least two tournament finals have ended in Hunters winning 7 times out of 8 matches. I have heard the knock back nerf has rendered entire strategies related to Warp Blast, Tongue Grab, Vortex, Charge or Leap Smash have been all but nullified. I have heard that there is a new strategy for which monsters have no counter for, competitively. I have heard there are more nerfs on the way.

As a game, and as an eSport, that stresses balance, the 50/50, its important that Evolve does not have an imbalance of WHERE they balance. The game has often been balanced around pubs. The most casual environment. This is so that new players are not scared off by a steep learning curve, and this, admittedly, is an attractive and somewhat needed option. But the game should not be consistently balanced on the lowest common denominator.

Instead, it should be balanced around lower to middle tiers of competitive play, because here, the teams understand what to do, but still make occasional mistakes, as they are just easing into competitive waters. If pubs are really the best basis for telemetry and balance, then perhaps this thread wouldn’t exist at all.


Monsters becoming overnerfed?
#2

I just have an issue with the knockback nerfs to monsters really, thats a significant buffs to hunters. I mean, knocking back Slim is the only real way to cut off his healing.
Now theres no way to effectively cut it.
And as mentioned before, all knockback oriented abilities are trash, they provide minor displacement that a hunter with 2 brain cells can negate in 2 seconds.

Focusing is 10 times harder now for any melee based monster, and its just too frustrating to deal with atm


#3

IMO, the whole knockback nerf ought to be reverted completely. Nobody ever complained about knock back, so I don’t see why they would need to nerf it.


#4

There’s a good reason. Pro-level monsters were chaining together infinite stunlock combos that guaranteed a down unless their teammates came to save them with shield, cloak, or extremely heavy cover fire (orbital, mortard, etc).

Granted, this skill is hard. You need to be perfectly accurate and have near frame perfect timing to ensure that the Hunter doesn’t get a fraction of a second to regain control and boost out.

When it’s laid out that way, you see why the mechanic isn’t fun for anyone. Hunters don’t like being stunlocked to death, Monsters don’t like being forced to memorize combo chains and perfect timings in order to score a down. Because nothing else is going to.


#5

This is untrue. The knockback nerfs and kraken nerfs were specifically targeted at high level. There was also the case of goliath traversals being slightly nerfed, which was targeted at high skilled goliaths.

There are a lot of other nerfs that I could name, but this post would be longer than it needs to be.


#6

I did say “for the most part.”

Are you talking about the lightning strike nerf or the CC nerf?

I still don’t think the knock back nerf was necessary. Even if it was meant to help Hunters escape super tough Monster combos, the knock back nerf has hurt three monsters very badly.


#7

I was talking about the LS nerf.

The game is being balanced on both extremes. It’s just that a lot of the pros know of bugs that are harder to solve on a programing level. I think it was a bit extreme to say that the game is mostly based around pubs. I apologize if you were annoyed by that, but it irked me :stuck_out_tongue:


#8

No problem! I changed it to ‘typically.’ Not sure if its much better. :stuck_out_tongue:

I think the LS nerf is fine, but in conjunction with the knock back nerf, I heard it made LS very, very difficult to pull off


#9

So what you’re saying is that a hunter by himself shouldn’t be punished for being by himself and shouldn’t require his teammates to save him while teamwork was supposed to be the biggest factor for the hunters? Yeah that’s wrong. Plus when you said

So since it takes skill and accuracy to execute the chain, shouldn’t that justify it’s use since a competent hunter team should always travel together or at least with a travel buddy when splitting into groups? I know it does. So this whole nerfing crap is unjustified and plain out wrong and is against the skill factors needed to not only execute the chain from the monster side, but also the teamwork aspect from the hunter side. This game is so hunter favored is despicable.


#10

This is a strange situation.

The reason monsters were doing the infinite stunlock combos is because it’s the only way to get a down vs competent Hunters. If you let off on your assault for literally just 2 seconds, Val can heal almost 30% of their HP and Caira will fill at least 50%. Combine that with a shield and your attack ultimately did no damage, but you take a whole bunch in trade. With the KB nerf, I don’t know how Monsters are expected to get their downs when Hunters are on top of their game.

That said, I understand why it was done. It explains the massive WLR gap between pubs and pros. It wasn’t just a viable strategy, it was the only viable strategy. And frankly, it wasn’t fun. But I think they should provided SOME kind of balance change that would give monsters a chance to score a strike. As it stands, I have absolutely no idea how the monster is expected to stand a chance, much less win.


#11

Perhaps a random critical hit? I know that sounds unnecessary and my reason for doing so isn’t quite just, but Hunters can use weakpoints and headshots to do extra damage. Monsters gain their own damage buffs via Evolving, but in face of dome-holding, or just competent hunters, why not allow Monsters a small chance to do, say, 1.5x or 2x extra damage?


#12

I was think lower the heavy melee cooldown from 5 seconds. Not sure what an ideal number is, but heavy attacks actually do noticibly more damage. Light attack DPS is so low, any medic can easily outheal them. So either increasing melee damage or reducing heavy cooldown might be a reasonable buff.


#13

They (i think macman) said they were gonna give all the monsters a buff to balance this out but what kinda buff will there be? More health and armor, faster melee and casting time, stronger attacks, revert the heavy attack tweek and make it so that heavy attacks come out more often?


#14

Hmm… More knockback after evolving? Each stage up increases the amount of knockback a monster can do.


#15

Hopefully however these buffs go, it makes monster play feel more consistent. I find half the frustration of playing monster comes from not knowing if your commitment will pay off. Like it feels as though hunters by default win the match and monsters have to capitalize on mistakes to win. So it’s really annoying not knowing if that hunter with a sliver of health left will die to your next attack or if one of many hunter abilities will come into play that stop you.


#16

Slim is actually the prime example for how little thought was put into this change and how it would affect a whole lot of core mechanics. Even the tutorial video for Slim says ‘don’t get too close to the Monster or you will get knocked back, you can’t Heal while you are knocked back’. So… let’s design a character and balance him around being countered by tumbles and knockbacks and then… let’s just remove the tumbles and knockbacks… ‘see what we did there Monsterplayers? Because we obviously don’t.’ Doesn’t help that Slim builds up a Healing Burst with 2 shots point blank now. So good luck getting him down with a Hank in the setup.
As it is, Slim just gets constantly in your face without you being able to properly punish him in any way for literally facetanking the bloody Monster as a Medic. As if Caira wouldn’t have been enough to deal with the past months.
Oh yeah, how is the saying? To put the whole thing the cherry ontop or the icing on the cake and since we just completely removed the hardcounter to Slim, let’s just buff his Healing Burst… wut?


#17

And of course have Spore cloud lag your computer like no other (I have a problem with particles for some reason ;p)
But yeah, I hope somethin changes, but eh, whatevs, I got customs to fall back on with friends that listen to my frustrations ^.^


#18

There is no substitute for control of the hunters. You might as well say “we are going to remove the dome from the game, but give hunters more damage / faster reload / more health / whatever to compensate”. You’re not replacing like with like.

They’ve declared being CC’d unfun, and thus removed it from the game (CC affecting hunters only ofc, monsters being unfun is by design). Whatever they buff in return, it’ll still be counterable by facerolling the keyboard.


#19

Thats where is was getting at. Like what kinda change will they do to the monsters that would/will compensate for focusing a hunter down. Cause i cant possibly think of one that can compare to what we had


#20

I couldn’t have said it better myself.