MMORPGs and What do you expect? (Pen/paper development of Epic)


#1

So, i have a concept in mind that i recently started brewing for a MMORPG ever since it dawned on me recently that nearly my entire life and past experiences naturally lead me towards game development. However, i have neither the funds nor equipment to do such, so this concept will be pen/paper until possible.

My idea is pretty much there and i already started building into the concept on pen/paper. however i wanted to ask on here for various input

What do you expect in a Fantasy MMORPG
What would you want in a MMORPG
What should an MMORPG want from you?
What do you think MMORPGs have currently done wrong (This can be towards a single example or a general example)

Feel free to add additional input and points you think should be involved!


Runescape | Other MMO recommendations?
#2

MMORPG’s currently are EXTREMELY grindy. It’s extremely offputting. They lack a progression system which feels fluid, fun and natural.

That’s what I think they do wrong.


#3

do you mind putting more detail into the “progression system” portion for me?

and thanks for the reply. i’m wanting to do some research into the concept early in order to adjust how somethings may plan out.


#4

Well in most MMO’s I’ve played it’s just a grindfest. I don’t need to explain grinding, I think. :stuck_out_tongue:

To be fair most games have grindiness in them but MMO’s especially so. Trying to think of a game with a natural progression system in it and I have a few, but they’re not perfect examples.


#5

I think its because of the RPG aspect involved. it drags out the playtime and makes you focus more time/effort into getting the strongest character you can make. add in quests and pvp and that also extends it. I think “grindiness” is an inherent trait for MMORPGs.

Feel free to give me those examples and some explanations if you want. Different people have different experiences.

Feel free to reply, i however must go to bed. i will be back online in around 6-7hours. Hopefully a couple more people reply here as i would love to get a good discussion going!


#6

Well, it depends on the type of fantasy. Is it more like TES fuckery, or LOTR/Narnia fantasy? It does matter. Elder Scrolls online was OK, but it’s not as “fantasy” feeling as I enjoy.

I think an MMO should cost money, but also deliver on the content. Make use of what you give them. I would also like a rich lore base for the world, as well as a decent space to move about and explore. Grind dungeons, balanced(ish) combat and leveling. Some magic would be cool, but only if the mechanics are done well and don’t require you to also level up other skills first to simply stay alive. Ability to communicate and work with others without having to form a damn guild. An in-game money system, where you only earn dough by doing stuff, not by paying real money to get above everyone.

This is the important one. It should expect a loyal and friendly playerbase, and for you to play the game the way it is meant to be played. Simple, but not really.

Several MMOs today are f2p, which I’m fine with. Nothing wrong with free entertainment, and I won’t turn it away when offered. The issue is, f2p generally goes hand-in-hand with pay2win. Please avoid that at all costs. It’s not fair to anyone, especially those with shallow pockets. Basically that’s it, but there are only a few really heavy fantasy ones, so that would be nice to see.

Overall, an MMO should not be approached like any other game. They are generally tougher and attract hardcore players. You’d have to cater to both sides, casual and hardcore, much like Evolve.

On another note, the story and composition of the world, how it is laid out in relation to the campaign, need to represent the type of world you’re trying to build. Heavy fantasy can go one of two routes; satire, which is satisfying and funny, but not generally tough, and then there’s immersive, which is generally closer to dark souls and the like, with a more fulfilling experience. Dungeons need to match the story you’re telling, and enemies should be in areas they belong in; no magical fairies in dank caves with massive spiders and snakes. Avoid tropes unless you’re using them for humor. A serious game with references to Pokemon is not gonna fly, despite me liking them both.

Grinding. Some like it, some don’t. I’m personally a fan, as are lots of other MMO players. The leveling system should be based on how serious the game is. Light games should have little grinding, while heavy MMOs need the grind.


#7

Grinding as in repetition, yes. But IMO, it doesn’t have to be so boring.

Eeeh…It’s a different kind of game but ok. I’ll shoot.

Dishonored has the rune and charm collection progression. Collecting Runes to upgrade your abilities and the likes.

Runes are tucked away and to get to them you have to either sneak or fight your way into certain locations, or complete side quests (like helping an old lady cook a mobster…<_<) and I feel like something along those lines- tying progression less to constant repetition of your exact role (example, SPANK THAT COW SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX TIMES TO GET MELEE LEVEL TO SIXTY NINE) and more to performing certain special actions that force you to use your particular strengths, but not grind.

For example, a world where you’d have, say, dungeons. You and your party make it through the dungeon and at the end there’s a reward which strengthens your character. You could have the reward be affected by effectiveness of clearing out the dungeon, not just mindlessly constantly spawncamping and mashing away.

So for example the base reward is one point. If your team’s healer kept your party above, say, 50% HP for the majority of that time, his bonus is increased to, say, 2 points. Rewarding him for doing the job well, etc.


I really don’t know lol. Just feel like progression should feel more natural, interesting, and drive you to complete a task with maximum skill and efficiency instead of “Grinding.”


#8

I laughed so much harder than I should have, I’ll admit.

On topic (close enough), though, I enjoy grinding out that last 2000 xp to max a character. Clearing a hard as fuck dungeon with low level gear (to really max out xp gain) and coming out not having lost any experience or money from dying. That’s a pretty good feeling. Or power leveling in a previous (but not weak) dungeon to beat a level you just can’t get past? Maybe it’s just a certain taste in games. I feel a game should be tough, though. We have to grind some masteries on Evolve (damn you, Sunny). What is so different?


#9

in all honesty, never played those xD. i guess fantasy is too broad a term…I plan on things from large ranges of magic, archery and melee to various forms of technology that could potentially fall under categories like clockwork and engineering in some ways. then the addition of skills interacting to create “advanced skills” in some ways.

both are a large part of my concept and i am a huge lore buff. lol. however, lore is also gonna be one of the hardest parts of the concept to build. “decent space” is planned to be completely blown out of the water as the world design is meant to follow Procedural World Generation (PWG). however, WiLD and NoMan’sSky are only barely pushing the limitations of the program.

i actually been discussion with a large number of my MMORPG friends and i think i have a good idea towards a more balanced but flexible combat system. as for dungeons, the PWG will have a hand in it too but of course will have some restrictions to it.

Magic, if its what you wish to focus on, should completely be able to rely on itself it needed. If you want to do a branch of magic before another type of combat skill first, then i hope to make it possible.

Completely agree.

100% agree with this. a game like an MMORPG that would require to cost money, should be able to keep itself up and updated simply through that. “micro transactions” in order to get ahead of others is completely absurd.

a friend of mine mentioned “demo” and that WoW lets you “f2p” up to a certain level.

This is something im curious about as to HOW to make it. i dont like p2w. however Runescape has an interesting method which seperates “member worlds” from “f2p” and disallows “member items” in the “f2p” worlds.

yup. you can’t split the demographic.

i think the idea i’m wanting is more immersive. i WANT you to feel like the world is your own. If something occurs in one part of the world, i WANT YOU to be affected and for you to figure out what to do.

yea, things like that involving dungeons always threw me off. in Runescape, theres a sewer system that towards the end of it, has moss giants and giant poisoness spiders…spiders would of been fine. but moss giants in a sewer?

Yea, i want to find a balance between them.


yea, cant tell you how many cows i killed back when i played Runescape Classic and RS2 a lot.

So in a way, you think that things like XP/Currency Reward should come primarily from things like Dungeons and Quests, but have it based off overall effectiveness of each individual player. Will look into this and see what i can come up with.


Okay, NOW im going to bed. be back in like 7hours.


#10

Phew, what a enormous theme… I’ll try not to write too much and if you need additional information you can come back at me, aye?

First off a good MMORPG needs a story that sucks you into it!
One of the main reasons why WoW still has ~4 million players (we can’t know the true number since they stopped showing these) playing is because of it’s enormous and amazing story/lore.

Looking at WoW one of the most famous characters is Arthas, a former prince of the Alliance (one of the factions) who got corrupted by an enchanted sword that he picked up to save his people. When he picked it up he sacrificed his teacher and old friend, but sacrifices had to be made. As the story continues he looses the love of his life, kills his father and slaughters almost everyone in his kingdom. Many important characters that you worked with died in the fight against him and seeing his might was really magnificent.

Secondly the classes need to be diverse! One of the most boring things in a MMORPG is to play classes that feel exactly the same and you need customization!
Can’t think about how boring it is to play your character and have no different skill sets - mostly skills to enhance your abilities, give them new effects and add new abilities or give more charges/less CD on important ones. While the 5% crit buff looks cool, it’s nothing different you FEEL and you’ll just pick it because it’s “better”.

Professions, it doesn’t have to be overly complicated, just make it… fun.
And that’s hard - I don’t want to have a game to rely on professions, but making them useless is also bad. You have to figure that one out yourself. Don’t make them grindy, but just find a good space inbetween.
(Maybe add that after you “kill x-creatures/farm this item y-times/craft it z-times/have a profession skill of ñ” you can craft said item with less or even no of these items but give certain restrictions, so said person can’t just sell them.)

Group content - be able to solo content, but don’t make it so that even your sleeping dingo can complete it with one leg (skilled players can also complete certain group quests alone, but you need SKILL for that).

Graphics - personal thing. When I look at games like ESO (realistic/shiny games) I get headaches after playing for 10 minutes and I LOVE the graphics that FF uses, ofc that’s something that every game has to find for itself. :wink:

Don’t hold the content back 'til the endgame - make it so that you enjoy it from the start and not be like “Ugh, what’s the fastest way to hit max level?”.

And to add to that point aswell as lore: Quests! They need to be fun, many people hate the latest WoW expansion and say nothing’s been good, but hell! The questing in there was AMAZING. I don’t know what exactly made it so fun, probably decisions that change the world (not just, kill him or not, seems a bit boring to me) for just your character. Also the quests had amazing voice acting which also made you feel like you’re IN THE GAME. After accepting the quest they also sometimes ran away and all that stuff.

Cinematics are always awesome, if not overused to show a door opening, but to see an important character fall.

Events for the players, like opening events or just open PvP with points to fight over, but that needs to be done right too. Even forcing people to play together in order to get somewhere: F.ex. you need a Warrior to get a sword from the last boss, send that over to a Blacksmith, let someone pick herbs and send the materials over, then let an Enchanter enchant the new blade, etc…


#11

I played WoW during the original and a little during Burning Crusade. i missed cataclysm and Lich King and tried to get back into it during Pandaria. however because Lore and story mattered alot to me, i lost interest because i was unable to play through the story for the 2 expansions i had missed. Its like reading the first couple chapters of a book, setting it down after a few months than start rereading 3/4s through it and have only heard about what you missed.

Mechanical changes matter quite a bit in keeping things different. Lets say i have 3 different types of stuns, each one a different type of magic.

Magic 1:
0.5 sec stun
Holds 5 charges max
Charges recharge over time (1.5 sec per charge)

Magic 2:
1.0 sec base stun

  • Stun duration increases if target is under a different status affect
    2 sec cool down

Magic 3:
0.5 sec stun

  • pauses all ability cooldowns of target by stun duration
    1.5 sec cooldown

So i do plan on making things as different as possible while keeping them as “balance” as possible for different styles

As for classes, the concept doesn’t use “set in stone” classes like WoW does, but will be more skill based with a player being able to level up multiple skills over time. each skill will have “skill trees” and such to allow for multiple styles. Classes work to an extent but i personally liked to have 12 different characters, where each time you start from lvl 0. I enjoyed the ability to train up a specific skill, then later go back and train a second skill. Plus by having it “skill based” instead of class based, i have the ability for skills to cross over.

However, games that use similar set ups have an issue in my opinion. the ability to switch “roles” during combat with no drawback. i came up with a way to kinda change it up to keep it flexible while balancing out the ability to have multiple skills available.

When outside of combat, you can choose a primary combat skill. all other combat skills become secondary. You can not change your primary combat skill while in combat. While in combat, your primary skill will be treated and used normally (100% effectiveness). You are free to use any secondary combat skills you have available, however, they will be slightly weaker because it’s not your primary role (as an example lets say 75%)

So if you enter combat with “Melee” as your primary combat skill and you have “magic” as a secondary. your melee will act normally (100%), however if you require the use of magic (healing, CC etc), it will only be 75% as effective than normal.

I’ve talked with several people about this idea and they actually seem to like the concept.

yea, professions are hopefully gonna be part of the concept. i hope to plan out a solid economy system.

basically your Level in said skill increases the effectiveness? So a weapon that would take 5 “ore” at a low level could only require 2 “ore” at max efficiency? something like that you mean?

Group based content will be a larger part of the “late” game as a way to help give higher level players additional things to do as i hope for higher level players to want to group up or join guilds in order to face dungeons and such that can’t be done by a single max player.

I would love to have the graphics be able to enter 4k realm at max settings but either way, the graphics need to be pretty detailed to make you feel inside it.

quests should be a large part of the game. how else do you learn the story and play a part in it?

It will be open pvp with a level restriction (to prevent players of too large a level difference from pking newer players), in addition “Guild Cities” will be a part of larger guilds and will automatically be open PVP if the guild retains a specific Infamous Rating, meaning that large PVP guilds have the ability to raid other larger PVP guild cities. its still a concept in works though

in addition to the primary skill set-up i mentioned above, that primary skill dictates your role when in a party or group (shown by specific icons on the party hud) and i plan or hope to make party/guild based dungeons have “Role Requirements” before they can enter. meaning that some dungeons may require 1 of each of a mage, melee, and range, while others may only require Mage and Melee. however, any extra players may be of any Role.


#12

Just had another idea considering the lore, while it is cool to have books and such to read different stories, it should not be restricted by it and free for everyone (looking at Blizzard’s policy in general <.<) and when there is (like videos on YouTube) there should be an easy way also for the new players to look at it, like when you’re opening the patcher of your game.

[quote=“The_Mastermind, post:11, topic:80024”]
Not set in stone classes (…) a player being able to level up multiple skills over time. each skill will have “skill trees”
[/quote] As in the Elder Scrolls/Final Fantasy games?
And the other thing seems really cool, that you can ‘switch’ roles in combat.

[quote=“The_Mastermind, post:11, topic:80024”]
basically your Level in said skill increases the effectiveness? So a weapon that would take 5 “ore” at a low level could only require 2 “ore” at max efficiency?
[/quote]Exactly! Not making it essential, but a ‘reward’ for your hard work… Like a real Blacksmith that creates iron swords every day, eventually he’ll get better, they go up in quality (probably a bad idea for a MMORPG, because it’s ‘essential’ again), he’s doing it faster with less ressources, etc.

[quote=“The_Mastermind, post:11, topic:80024”]
Group based content will be a larger part of the “late” game
[/quote] Obviously, but don’t leave it behind in the early levels, there are very few people that like the non-challenging part and it’s annoying having to group up to kill someone, but it’s healthier for the game and also for the players.

[quote=“The_Mastermind, post:11, topic:80024”]
quests should be a large part of the game.
[/quote] That was more of an advice, what I feel is really cool about the quests. I bought ESO a few days ago and people say it’s got wonderful quests, so I’ll try it and can report back to you if you want, chances are I’ll quit it though. Games like ESO (already said it) give me headaches from the graphics, but we’ll see.^^

The last 2 brackets sound like cool ideas, I heard of a game where you had a ‘king’ from the community and he had the power to make certain decisions… Might consider that (or something in that direction; else it might go in a bad way :I)?


#13

never played them…lol. never had access to them.

No, its not “switching roles” (unless you mean between combat) You choose a primary skill before combat, and once your incombat you can’t change it until combat is finished. however, you still have access to your other abilities, they’d just be slightly weaker than if they were your primary.

Primary (100%): Melee
Secondary (75%): Magic (Healing), Marksmen (Archery), Magic (Summoning), Engineering (Traps), etc.

I think this falls under the “natural progression” system @MidnightRoses was wanting. i’m all for it. it sounds logical too.

Yea, it’ll take some looking into but balancing it out should be possible. i myself enjoy playing solo for a while then i end up joining with friends for larger and harder quests down the road.

The Guild Cities are meant to give larger guilds the ability to shape the world some. So a large guild based off trading and making IGC (in-game currency) can eventually buy a Guild City Zone from one of the Capital Guild Halls. The purchase of a Guild City requires a few things

  1. X Members of lvl X or higher
  2. X IGC from the Guild Bank (AND an upkeep cost from the Guild Bank)
  3. The completion of a Guild Epic Quest

From there, guild members use their various skills to craft and make items and donate those items to the guild city. Then those with guild permissions can take those items and add/remove/manipulate them into however they deem fitting to create a Guild City (think of a world-builder style program). A Trade based guild would probably want to make things like Guild owned shops, and add an auction house/bank (these will act as any other auction house/bank would in any other capital). eventually they may end up being a huge part of the Player based economy by being one of the best places to trade/buy/sell.

Now…add in PVP. I’ve always wanted the ability to raid other groups in PVP. the game SecondLife gave me this ability during my time as a leader of an In-game army (made up of real players). we had some pretty epic battles that included various things like vehicles, mechs, drones, aircraft, and ships to traditional gun based combat with things like grenades and such. I want to be able to give that ability to PVPs here by allowing Guild Cities the ability to have PVP active.

PVP can not however, be an “option change” because then you could simply toggle it off if a battle isn’t going your way. This is where the Infamous Rating comes in. The Infamous Rating is a ratio of PKs (or PK activities) compared to the number of active guild members. If a Guild surpasses the threshold of the rating, then their Guild City will have PVP enabled.

This concept also allows non-pvp based guilds like a trade based one, from becoming raidable. Members in the trade based guild could still PVP, but as long as the guild’s Infamous Rating is below the threshold, PVP is disabled for their city.


#14

Remove the cash shop and you’ll be in business.


#15

cash shop?

This?


#16

Every mmorpg has a cash shop of some kind that usually disturbs the balance of the game.


#17

oh. like Real cash. not ingame currency.

No, i’m good without it. i’m fine with DLC, expansions etc. but my concept isnt built around that and even customization will be pushed quite far in game.

so from what i plan, there wont be room for such a thing.


#18

My wording was a bit bad, sorry there. :stuck_out_tongue:
But I meant that, aye, so that you ‘switch’ your role by off-healing if needed or taunt this add off of your healer (and that concept is something I looooooooooooooovee: Having Off-Tanks/People that are primarily in their DPS spec, but use Plate/Shields in order to tank adds when the tank dies or if it’s just needed).

Guild Cities seem like a fun idea… IF done right, if not then it’s just bad for the game (might need to make different zoning areas or one gateway/teleporter that you step into and then choose into which city you want to go; otherwise it might get too stuffed or some poor guilds may never afford to get a city because all the big ones have one. :frowning: )

PvP in those cities should be an option that the leader of said city can choose… So a Rogue-like guild can choose to just go full PvP and rob everyone on the streets, while a trading guild can choose to have a non-PvP city, now you could add a factor (as you said) that if the guild surpasses this one the city will get enraged and PvP is enabled.

[quote=“The_Mastermind, post:13, topic:80024”]
then you could simply toggle it off if a battle isn’t going your way
[/quote] To prevent this you could make it so that you can’t toggle it off while someone is in combat, or only on weekly resets or only after x-days/hours of no PvP.

[I’m gonna quote Macman in one of his posts from Evolve and the beginning of the game though. “Sometimes the simpler path is the better one.” - The game needs to be newbie friendly unfortunately. :wink: ]


#19

im just sick of hotkey cooldown combat. dark souls, star citizens are my new mmos.


#20

Yes! I have a large number of MMO friends in real life and online and they like the idea. Healing is my primary example when trying to explain it but basically it is like have an “off-role”. Even if it’s weaker, the ability to support a specific role seems to be an accepted idea so far. And your tank example is great.

The world will be procedurally generated based on the number of players. It’ll have the base world that generated but then as more and more players join, the world will automatically expand based off the Max players (thus creating the Outlands/WasteLands). This includes additional randomly generated dungeons. Things like quests will have to be manually made though and updated as new areas are discovered unless there’s a edu to generate small side quests. It’ll be a task to achieve correctly, but It can be done.

Guild Cities are meant to be a big guild type thing. Smaller guilds will be able to get guild halls and such but an entire city is a large guild thing.

In my opinion, simply having it toggle automatically based on the guilds overall PVP based activity sounds the easiest way. Toggles or time delayed would cause problems in my opinion. while the infamous rating basically means, if you PVP enough, you may be “at risk”. The Infamous Rating does deteriorate over time though if PVP is beginning less frequent in a guild.


Dark souls isn’t an MMO…