Medic balance discussion


#1

Even when you once stated that you take Val when you want to win, and Laz if you want to have fun. Changed your mind on that or? :slight_smile:


Telemetry and Game Balance
#2

That’s me personally, because I think Val is easier to play. I’m not a great medic but I do have fun playing medic.


#3

Ah good to hear. Cause me and a friend of mine once were discussing that statement and took it as ‘the devs say one character will always be superior over the other’ thankfully that’s not the case!


#4

Nah. At least that’s not the intent. Nothing will ever be perfect, but the goal is that all characters are equally viable. I will say that I expect Lazarus to crush Monsters that haven’t played against him much. It takes time to figure out how to counter. Also Monsters who aren’t observant will take a beating. You need to pay attention to that lobby screen when everyone locks in. If you don’t realize you are facing Lazarus, and you play as if you’re not, you’re likely to lose.

Similarly, if Maggie is in the game, I don’t sneak as much. Against newer teams that ignore Daisy, it’ll probably be fine but against educated teams, they know how to read her and when to pay attention to her and Daisy will effectively shut down your sneaking game (speaking from the current builds where she’s not buggy.)

So after characters are locked, I look at the medic and trapper. Support and Assault I can adapt to on the fly, but I need to know the other two from the word go.


#5

I highly DISAGREE. Lazarus is a terrible choice against good monsters that focus. Playing with lazarus is like playing with a man down, you can just chain kill hunters if Laz is sitting there waiting. Laz only has instant revive but loses Tranq’s, med gun, and 2.0x crit damage.

I know we have a lot of fresh people here so I’m not surprised at this opinion but I think it is very wrong especially at a high end gameplay. And just to back up that statement, I played more than a handful of games as Laz with my team to prove that point to myself. My team (veritas) was very upset at losing tranqs, the extra damage, and the med gun. I was literally sitting there waiting for someone to die.

The major argument, which is a good one, is that laz can res people who are dead. This is an extremely good point and makes him very strong, however if you focus the support no one can shield laz and he has to sit there and wait for you to move off the supports body to res him. Fighting against Laz, you should always take flame breath to find him, for kraken I’m not quite sure what to take as theres many good choices. I would probably put a point in aftershock to help find him or just banshee mine the downed player.


#6

I think Laz has his place but there’s a reason he’s tier 2. He’s not easy to utilize. A good Laz will find a good vantage point and pepper the monster with weak points. Keep in mind since he’s not healing he can be constantly shooting for more damage than Val. Then when someone goes down, get them up with no penalty. That’s big but it as you point out it comes at a cost.

It’s up to you and your hunter team to decide if that tradeoff is worth it.


#7

Laz can still shoot creating his own weak points and use healing burst. He doesn’t just sit there waiting for someone to die.


#8

He pretty much is though… if he doesn’t he will get focused because the monster knows what he is capable of. His weak points are 1.0x… 1.0 times anything is 1.0. I also didn’t quite get this when I saw the damage indicator btw mac :stuck_out_tongue:

Many monster players who were good that I talked to preferred playing against laz than val and I agree. Is that to say they are right? No, absolutely not. I wouldn’t count Laz out completely either. I’d test him out further but from what I did test out and what I played against when I was monster - I wouldn’t run him in a competitive setting.

Third tier could and probably will change my mind, so many more combinations of hunters!


#9

I’m nearly certain that Laz’s weakpoints are a 1.5x multiplier and are smaller. Val’s are 2x and larger.

The danger with Laz is forgetting about him. Even if you start off trying to kill him, a good Griffin will get behind you and keep harpooning you in the back. A Hank might shield him and cloak him, he has his own cloak. Meanwhile the assault is burning through your armor and HP.

So you turn your back for a second to take down one of these pesky hunters that keep you from killing Laz. Even good players I think will get distracted if the other 3 hunters are doing their jobs well.


#10

Why would you ever focus the medic first? Hank will just shield him.

Always go for support first, it is the weakest character on the board due to not being able to shield himself. Once hank cloaks thats when you go for medic, alternating between the two. Once you know his shield is gone then you can go for trapper if need be. Rock throw or vortex is your friend when hooked :wink:

I agree laz’s weakpojnts are 1.5x but I’m pretty sure it showed up as 1.0x on my screen when I was playing him.

Also, I’d say half the time I’m fighting I have NPC’s doing some dirty work for me, megamouths and tyrants <3


#11

Idk hanks shield aint that strong ( like assaults ) and it also can be broken easy by getting him out of sight. So id rather kill the medic first if it is laz, otherwise the trapper ( just to be sure i can get away before taking real damage )


#12

This argument doesn’t make sense when arguing Val is vastly superior. He is weaker than Val because the monster will (because it needs to) focus on him? The monster can attack Val at least as easily, arguably more easily because of the glowy graphics and lack of cloak.


#13

If anything the monster should have more pressure to kill Val than laz…he just needs to keep Laz away :\


#14

To be honest, Val can’t keep a teammate that much longer in the fight than Laz can. The tranq won’t slow a monster down (cooldown reduction on movement ability + any other abilties that move the monster, charge etc) and the medgun will keep the hunter that gets focused alive for maybe a maximum of 3 seconds. On top of that, Val can be easily identified in battle thanks to the clear sound of her sniper rifle and the beam from her healgun.

The tranq can be good when you are chasing the monster, though a good Goliath will stil manage his leaps + moving abilities to make sure that he has to do as little walking as possible. Now vs the Kraken, the tranq is invaluable, I’ll give you that.

Lazarus on the other hand, will sit at pretty much maximum range of the monster. Hard to hit with abilities and time-consuming to reach. He might occasionally pop in for a heal burst, but that’s it. And while his weakspots aren’t as good as Val’s, he almost completly paints the entire body of the monster with them. I know assault isn’t my main, but I can definatly tell that it is extremely hard to aim at Val’s weakspots all the time while also avoiding the monster’s abilities. Whereas with Lazarus, you’ll pretty much deal bonus damage no matter what. Weapons with a large spread like Hyde’s minigun and Bucket’s turrets also benefit a lot more from them than Val’s. On top of that, Lazarus’s continues fire actually adds op a decent amount of damage.

Now, when the monster downs a hunter, he can do two things:
1: Camp the body so Lazarus can’t revive him. A good Laz player is fine with that: A downed hunter can take quite a beating and he has 45 seconds to rez him if he’s completly dead. On top of that, camping a body as Goliath can be heavily punished with things like Gas Grenades, Orbital Barrages or even an ‘indirect’ punishment where Markov and Bucket place all their mines and turrets in a nearby area, which means that when Goliath will focus on them he will face a lot of damage.
The Kraken on the other hand has to constantly bombard the body with basic attacks, severely lowering his damage output. He also needs to keep sight of the body for those ranged attacks, limitng his working space and making him more open for AoE attacks.

2: Go for Lazarus himself. Again, lazarus is as far away from the monster as possible so it’ll take a while before you reach him or you can hit him reliably. And’ hes free to use his cloak whenever he want’s as you make your way towards him, which starts the game of ‘can the monster hit the invisible hunter’ which comes down to mind-games between the monster and the invisible Lazarus. Again, Lazarus is in no rush to revive his teammate and will try to waste as much of the monster’s time as possbile so that he will take maximum damage.

3: Eating the bodies. Seems very hard to pull of if the hunters just keep shooting you.

Now the only strategy that does work well against Laz is slowly spreading the damage between the hunters and then downing two of them in a quick sequence. Now the monster can camp the bodies/hunt laz without having to worry about taking too much damage. But this is in return countered by good team positioning, clutch heal bursts from Laz and good CC from the trapper.

Just a Lazarus main here trying to defend his position vs all the ‘Val’s better’ people. :frowning:


#15

I’m saying this…

Vs. Val + Hank

Focus solely on hank to kill him

Vs. Laz + Hank

Focus hank but if you see laz, switch quickly to damage him

Super similar strategy, but I’d put a little more effort into spotting Laz over Val and pummeling him if I saw the chance open up rather than just focusing Hank down.


#16

I also agree with the Laz statement. I was so hyped to play him, but for whatever reason I think hes missing something. Maybe if you shorten his CD for the laz device, because if the monster starts to drop hunters one after another the match is lost. This will happen a lot since ur team will be running around not topped off a lot of the time since you don’t have a healing gun. I remember multiple matches where I revive someone, then wait right by another downed hunter for what felt like an eternity for it to come off of cool down. Don’t get me wrong im not saying to give it a 1sec CD but just make it a little bit faster and I think it will do the trick.


#17

We felt the Laz Device cooldown was more than sufficient…


#18

I disagree with Val not being able to keep a hunter in the fight longer than Laz… theres so many things that come into play here though… kiting with mines, orbital, etc… these things delay the monster and when he’s spending 2-3 seconds trying to get to you or dodge an orbital you’re healing your team. with medgun + heal burst combo.

I’m going to say this though… it is obvious that all of us have not experimented enough with it. It’s too bad MMR wasn’t working properly or we could have some more solid data. I have to keep reminding myself that even though I put in 35 hours this alpha only like 10-20% of that time was played against good players. Really doesn’t let me validate my points even with myself… :confused:

I stand by my baby girl Val though :wink:


#19

Can’t tell you how many times I crushed monster players as Laz in the Big Alpha because they’d do work on our team but as soon as they turned around to get someone else I’d have the team back up to full strength. Probably my favorite character in this test, last test it was definitely Markov.


#20

I love the concept of Lazarus, it’s very different to what you expect from a medic, I just wish he had an extra skill that was more supportive to make him more well balanced like chaning his cloak to something else, though his cloak does have obvious uses to his kit.

That being said, my wins against a stage 3 monster were more straightforward when I played Lazarus mainly due to the fact that when the final fight comes my team was still at full strength due to having no down penalties