Lazarus discussion


#1

So, I watched quite a few videos and felt like having a discussion on Lazarus. First off, I read a few topics about his rez, and its a little fast, but it seems this is being worked on.

This topic isn’t about that. If anything, I think he is woefully underpowered, and may be in need of significant buffs or even a complete rework.

Right now, he’s doing great as a solid char, I see more vids with him than with Val. I believe this is going to change once the game goes public. I don’t know anything about the new medic so I can’t say this with certainty, but I’ll outline some reasons I think Val with be preferred over Lazarus.

Once the game goes open and players really test the balance more, we’ll see different strategies evolve. Lazarus is great in theory, but he has major flaws. Compare the two. Both sniper rifles are good, and are fine with their differences. The problem is their healing and 4th ability. Lazarus’s rez is great, the no penalty is a great mechanic. The thing is, someone has to die first before it can come into play. This makes it a reactionary ability, rather than a preventive one. When someone goes down, the smart player will cloak an wait for an opportunity to run in and save his teammate. A smart monster will try to do everything to camp the body to prevent this. While this is happening, there are effectively two chars taken out of the immediate battle. The personal cloak is good, as it improves his chances, but its not great for a medic as it does nothing to help the team, with by buffing them, or hurting the monster.

Look at Val, she’s a much more “active” participant. The tranq gun both slows and tags the monster, it is a great supporting weapon. The big deal is the heal gun. it is an active item to prolong the fight, and an active weapon to use. A good solid team will want to prolong the fight, and keep pressure on the monster. Keeping everyone up, I believe, is what is really going to be the more solid choice.

I think in general PUBs, and casual fun play it won’t matter as much between the two, but in competitive and focused teams, Val will be preferred. An active and preventative char will see more play over a passive and reactionary style.


The unofficial tips/strategy thread
#2

Just finished another thread about Lazarus being OP and this pops up, nice. I really enjoy discussions of that type, especially if it does include the balancing of the game.

First of all, I really do think that Lazarus is broken/OP. Not entirely, but in some way he is. There are a few arguments I’d like to list and explain why he’s bogging down every game he is participating in.

You mentioned one of these points already; Until one of his teammates dies, he’s just sitting in the backline firing a few shots and maybe using the class ability once per fight (cooldown issues), while his other two abilities Cloak and Rez are pretty much dead cards in his hands. Val, at this point of the fight, is much more versatile. Tranq. Gun, Medgun, Rifle and on top of that the class ability. (Ex.) Do you focus on slowing down the monster and creating weak spots or just fully rely on your medgun and try to keep your team at full health, It’s pretty much up to you and your playstyle. Lazarus on the other hand is going to pierce the monsters armor monotonously everytime until one of his mates dies. At this point you’ll see him charging the dead body with his cloak over and over again, either leading his team to death or - and here kicks the OP part in - revive his mate without getting a strike to his healthbar. Leaving behind a sad monster that invested armor and health for pretty much no reason.

Regularly the monster won’t be able to eat the dead body to make the strike “permanent”. At this point, from the viewpoint of the monster, there’s pretty much no reason to take the risk of early fights, because most of the time you won’t be able to set you in an advantageous position for lategame. If you are up against Val it might be worth the risk, because evey downed hunter results in a strike, which make you even more dangerous in lategame and set you far ahead.

Lazarus is a monotonous character who’s boring to play and leads his mates or the monster in awkward situations. I just don’t like the concept, it harms the game in its flow.


#3

Something you have to keep in mind about Val, is her healing beam will not keep someone alive during continued attacks from the Monster. So while I agree with your argument, I don’t think Val’s healing is strong enough to make a difference. When more games are played, I think we’ll know for sure.


#4

I believe lazarus is very much horrible if the monster stalls it, normally, a monster may try to get some down penalties early on, giving hunters some time to try and do permanent damage to him, lazarus completely denies that option, which may or may not be an disadvantage, because monsters when playing vs laz are most likely trying to get to stage 3 without incident, then wipe out the team in a last fight, also, laz’s healing out-right sucks, so doing lots of aeo damage to the whole team is stronger then if you were vs a Val, she also has the added effect of the better weakpoints, the amazing tranq gun, and ranged revives ( im not sure about this last one, but i recall her heal-gun being able to revive )


#5

You make some really good points, especially Laz’s reactionary style of play compared to Val’s proactive approach to combat and healing. It’s my opinion that Laz may have been the last Medic class to be created by TRS, and they wanted to come up with something unique and different to Val’s and Medic3.

I think Medic3 will have a similar proactive approach to healing, but with higher risk / higher reward healing abilities. DB recently in the Friday Evolve stream said Val is the only Medic who can single target, long-range heal her teammates continually. I could see Medic3 having an mid-range AOE heal that needs to be aimed at the Hunter or an area on the ground.

I say this because it feels like Laz was clearly designed to counter the Strike system, an game mechanic created to emphasize the Hunter’s diminishing ability to defeat the Monster as the fight progresses.

With Val/Medic3 (yes I’m being presumptuous here) it is essentially a game of the Hunters devolving as the Monster evolves, and this is evident in interviews with the devs where they mention the need for the Monster to get a few strikes on the team before his final, late-game battle (if all goes to plan). At that point the Monster is at max strength and the Hunters will hopefully have 25% less health at least. It’s often said a Monster at Stage 3 is very hard to kill, but I suspect that statement is made on the pretense that the Hunter team will have suffered a few strikes and cuts from the Monster up until that point.

Laz fundamentally changes the intended balancing of the game by not causing strikes to his teammates when using the device. I see it as him playing outside the game rules and I don’t think on the surface this is something that can easily be quantified as a strength in Laz’s favor. He has the capacity to slow down the Hunter’s rate of devolution. It could be akin to a Monster that was designed to required less meat per Evolve stage in lieu of another, active ability. The Monster would Evolve faster but have less tools to play with.

I actually think in competitive play this battle between Hunter devolution & Monster evolution will be more important than a Hunter’s own suite of abilities. It will be really interesting to see how a ‘gameplay cheating’ character like Laz fares as the game’s community learns and grows.


#6

@xdflames
True, but if Val could outheal the monsters damage that’d be hilariously overpowered. You have to play smart as a team, try to split the monsters aggro among the whole team. Tranq. Gun for example delivers great utility for that! Trappers with their harpoonthings too. I think it’s nicely balanced. There aren’t these “win or lose” situations. They can trade even or with slight advantages on one side.

@MultiDavid
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. There’s no reason for a monster to pick early fights to weaken the hunters, because the risk is waaaay too high. It’s just “rush stage 3 and try to crush 'em!”…


#7

Also, the monster can easily counter laz just by camping beside a body, sure he has the cloak, but support has it… and its a skill-slot that could be used for something more usefull.


#8

If the monster eats the body they can’t be revived, so there is no need to “Camp” the body.


#9

Sure there is counterplay, nobody denies that. But eating the body won’t work most of the time, cause you’re in the middle of a fight. And just camping the body instead of beating up the hunters asses pretty much slows down the game and is kinda annoying.


#10

In a full-fledged fight at tier 3… at the generator lets say, do you think the monster will be able to eat ?


#11

The biggest thing about Lazarus is he cannot prevent downs on himself. As the monster, getting into Stage 2 or even full armor Stage 1 fights can be advantageous by getting a couple strikes on Lazarus himself. A Stage 3 monster fighting against a team with Lazarus having 2 strikes is really dangerous. At that point, you’d only have to camp one body to get Lazarus dead for good.


#12

I agree with what MacMan said about the Val vs Laz dilemma, and that is that really neither is more op in testing, and if they start to see one over the other after release they will adjust accordingly. However, when I see this thread, I get these words echoing in the back of my mind…

And my spine shivers and I eagerly await with anticipation :stuck_out_tongue:
I get the impression that the next medic to be revealed will have something as seemingly op as what Laz has. The only thing I can scrounge up that is that controversial, is the ability to simply remove strikes :stuck_out_tongue: I want to know so badly what it really is!!!


#13

It’s a 1 meat / 2 meat so it doesn’t take long to eat, usually the hunters don’t shoot you in time if you eat the body. It worked for me every time I killed a hunter.


#14

People will adapt to that, and try to keep the monster under pressure to let laz do the dirty work, most of the time its up to the monster.


#15

I’m not really trying to say he’s OP or not, I guess the point I’m trying to make is his fundamental character details and loadout.

Skills and abilities can be buffed and nerfed, but the core char can’t be changed as easily once the game is launched. Skills with change and strats will appear on both sides.

I’m sure he’ll see plenty of play, just not at the upper levels, so to speak. His reactionary style will be fine in PUGs and for people just wanting to jump in and have fun. What I’m talking about is groups of friend/clans/whatever, that play often, and have high levels of teamwork. A solid Val will work with everyone to keep everyone alive as long as they can. This will put so much more pressure on the monster, its harder to divide and conquer. Lazarus won’t bring the pressure that high levels of play like that require.Like I said in my first post. When you knock someone down, there are effectly 2 people out of the fight, the downed member, and the Laz player who is being sneaky trying to get that Rez. If you drop the assault, aside from Hanks, orbital barrage, there isn’t much that’s going to get you away from camping the body.


#17

It’s just that Lazarus isn’t versatile at all, especially in comparison to Val. There is only this one way to play him, because his loadout restricts him so bad. Sit in the backline, increase the damage of your team; if someone dies, charge forward. There are only two possible outcomes.

  1. He’s leading his team in a very bad position for ex. bait them to death while they try to protect him or draw attention. Monster is so far ahead from that point, if it hasn’t won yet. Multiple Strikes on the hunters etc.

  2. Lazarus actually manages to do his job, revives all his mates and the monster is pretty much f*cked up. Probably lost a big chunk of health and doesn’t get anything from it.

That’s outright boring and kind of broken. :confused:


#18

i agree with Niko, Laz’s kit either makes him completely poo, or completely OP.

Either he doesnt get his revive off, and he’s useless and will prolly even help the monster kill his team from baiting.

or he nails all of his revives, and the monster never gets an inch, and to me i feel the match feels pretty stale, when nothing you do to the hunters sticks, while every shot they take on u past your armor is permanent.


#19

It’s a different kind of pressure, I think. The healing gun is something like 5% HP / sec, it’s not dismissible but a Monster can quite easily counter that with AoE attacks, displacement/knock back abilities and such. We also don’t know the third Monster’s (or the 4ths) attacks and if they could affect a Medic’s healing ability. For example, a single-target attack that does heavy DoT, or reduces healing effectiveness by 50%. Loads of possibilities.

This is still the case without Laz. The Monster will still try to kill an incapped hunter with a non-Laz medic, why wouldn’t he? The reward for successfully doing so is even greater, what with the dropship penalty. Other Hunters would still attempt to revive the incapped player, taking them out of the action as much as Laz would be.

The Monster will also have to camp for even longer to attempt to eat the corpse to completely negate Laz’s utility, too. It will need to watch the incapped body and then the corpse. Theoretically, Laz could sit on a perch putting ten weak spots on the Monster as Bucket’s Sentries and Hyde’s chaingun tear it apart as it camps. It can’t eat if it’s being fired on.

Also, just because Laz is in play doesn’t mean no one else should revive. Additionally, you know Hank can shield incapped Hunters? Alternatively, Hank can shield Laz and make him invulnerable whilst he revives the downed player unimpeded. Laz’s invisibility can also be used to flee and wait for a dropshop; it still holds utility beyond its personal use.

Sorry, but you don’t know that. There’s still four more classes with at least 8 different abilities (excluding primary weapon and class ability) that could dramatically alter the game, 6 in play if Laz is chosen. While I enjoy the guesswork, it seems a bit premature to disregard a hunter entirely without knowing who else is supporting him, or believing there are no more ‘anti-camp’ abilities in play.

Still so many unknown possibilities that could affect who is victorious. :smiley:


#20

hmm. well iv been a val supporter for awhile now when everyone was saying laz was broken. first i will say that i love the fact that this game puts medic on such a high pedistal finally. no matter which medic you are you are most likely the main target. both val and laz can only heal themselves with the heal burst. and both val and laz cannot revive themselves and suffer strike penalties. laz gets a cloak to get away. i havnt seen anyone try to tranq the monster while getting punched then kite away. but thats what i will do.

heres my thoughts as well
-Val is best paired with hank. the combination of them working in unison is a nightmare.
-in anyway that you see it. val produces more dps overall because the team stays healthy longer.
-Val can heal from a distance to revive fallen members. behind say,traps and landmines.

LAZ
-best used with a dps heavy team even if they are dead. example would be bucket, maggie, markov for mines + assault rifle. (flame thrower cant proc all those multipliers a laz would be putting on.

  • Laz has 2 chances to get away. personal cloak and supports cloak.
  • if laz dies, the teamfight is over. everyone should split in different directions or risk losing.
    -with 2 strikes laz is one shotted. im under the assumption that he has less hp than val because he just melts…
    -a laz should not dart out to get the revive. the body isnt going anywhere. and a camping monster trying to eat him will just be shot. wait until hes distracted and cloak AFTER the revive. so you can get away.

neither of them are op. i think the balance is just right. besides maybe the laz device speed. its insanely fast.


#21

So, this post wasn’t supposed to land hear but it did anyway. Evil posts…

So to write something regarding this topic. I think both Laz and Val are balanced, because it forces the monster to adapt its play style to the hunters it’s facing.

Never ever saw a monster focusing the Assault first because the monster can take a lot of damage but the utilities of the other hunters are much more dangerous than damage.

So you have to estimate the priority of the hunters and kill them in this order.
Stage one dome? Kill the trapper!
Got a good engage at Stage 2 with armor and you are going for the kill? Kill Laz!
Last epic fight oat the generator and have problems with movement due to buckets sentry guns? Get him down!

Which one you should focus is in this cases is just my humble opinion. Haven’t played the game yet so I can be wrong but I thing you got the point.