:lazarus_cute: Still don't think Laz is "right"

With Arena, recent buffs to Laz, and the exposure that’s brought I thought it was time to revisit the issue that is Lazarus.

Lazarus has been fixed for a good month or so now, his reload speed perk properly affecting his cloak, and a much larger heal burst radius granted means he feels (and is) more useful on the battlefield.

The effect of this (Lazarus with reload perk) is that a team with Hank or Sunny is actually kept very well healed with a Lazarus, and as long as the support and medic have the most basic of communication, Laz can be almost perma-cloaked if they want him to be.

The main issue that Lazarus used to have was that there was absolutely no way to counter the tactic of spreading damage on hunters, because when you hit one down, the rest would follow in quick succession, and no-one would be around to provide the utility or distraction that Lazarus needed to start getting people back up. With his reload speed and larger range heals this isn’t an issue any more.

The other change that has helped Laz by proxy is the knockback nerf. He peels much easier than before, but perhaps more importantly it’s not possible to legitimately knock a hunter away from a dead body for long enough to be able to either eat it or give yourself the space to protect against Lazarus’ revive.

Here is an example of how easy it feels to get a revive in (first round of the Arena match there, in the second round I failed by dashing too far, otherwise would have been another easy rez), especially on monsters like Behemoth and perhaps Wraith.

So, on balance, it feels like Laz has gone a bit over powered. His cloak and quicker self heal means that he is the most survivable medic aside from Caira if she’s supported (if any medic is targeted and downed then it is devastating for the team, Laz isn’t special in this regard). His on field heals are almost Slim level but without needing to actually attack the monster for it. All of this culminates in a frustrating experience for monsters as hunters are generally healthy enough to provide support for any Laz revive.

Lazarus in his current state resets the game for the hunters too easily, especially against lower level monsters, but even now I feel against more experienced ones too. This isn’t so much a product of Laz changes in and of themselves as I said above… it’s also about other changes to the mechanics of the game. It may be time to give him a slight nerf/rebalance.

So… what needs to change?

Some love the feeling Laz has right now, I do too, but it doesn’t mean it’s fair. If Laz is to remain with his level of heals then the damage mitigation that his revives provide has to be looked at. The lack of a strike on people coming back means that for each revive performed the monster is having to put in an extra amount of effort than they would against another medic. It’s not as simple as just looking at HP healed/revived, because while Val or Caira may heal a lot in a match, they also have to contend with people being downed or even killed that provide an ever growing monster even more opportunity to take down that hunter in the future.

Either his revives have to cost the hunters more than they do, or the revives have to be harder to pull off against camping monsters. IMO Lazarus revives too quickly, that’s the crux of the issue. If the monster is nearby and poised to stop Laz, he can still get a revive in. A monster actually swinging aimlessly over a body can still be revived under!

I would say the following changes need to be made…

  1. Stop the Lazarus device working until someone is dead. If the point is to revive someone from the dead then let it only work from dead. This fits with the general purpose of Laz (wait and be patient) and also then allows the monster a window from within which it can try to take measures to defend against Laz without having to worry about the revive.
  2. Slightly increase the time it takes to charge the device. Not by much, but enough that a monster that is within melee range can actually get a swipe in. A monster is giving up health to defend the body, it should have a reasonable chance at doing just that.
  3. Slightly increase the range at which the device works. All the above aside it is a problem with some monsters and their ability to pinpoint their attacks at a moments notice even from range. They know they just need to hit the body with a snowball or whatever. A bit more range would give Laz the flexibility while cloaked to secure a rez when the monster isn’t too close.

Any thoughts? :smile:

4 Likes

Leave him alone, he’s good as is.

25 Likes

Here we go with people complaining Laz is OP. If he couldn’t revive somebody that is down then the monster could just go after another and down a 2nd hunter. By that time, Laz Cloak will run out and the monster can see him and get him down. This will make it extremely easy to win against Laz.

6 Likes

In my experience a Laz almost never goes in on a hunter who is merely incapped anyway, so I don’t feel it changes the play for the hunters. It does allow the monster some freedom, and I think this swings both ways. If the monster isn’t careful then it’ll leave the body more open to resurrection, but if he is good then he’ll be able to capitalise enough to at least get some form of benefit that playing against another medic would allow.

For example, a monster who downs people against any other medic could use that down time to go after other hunters, but the medics doing the reviving from afar are much more visible and thus targetable than Laz, and so this issue you have with monsters being able to go after an down a second hunter is somewhat a scenario with all medics. They can mitigate the focus better most likely, however they also have to contend with a hunter either being on the dropship or having a strike for the rest of the game too. That’s balance for you I guess :wink:

Laz shouldn’t be cloaking unless in danger or going in for the rez anyway, so his cloak should never run out in that situation. If the monster does force Laz to cloak and thus make it hard for him to rez, then fair play to the monster tbh, same as it’d be fair play to the monster who uses the beam/grenade path to find a medic trying to revive a body to take that medic down. With Laz’s level of heals right now, assuming the team is actually dodging and mitigating damage properly, it’s not like it’s actually a simple task to down a hunter any more.

No.

No.

YES, GOD YES! I’m getting tired of typing the same ol’ stuff but here it is again:
Lazarus is about stealth, not rushing in to revive. This change wouldn’t hurt good Lazarus players while melee-oriented Monsters benefit actually get a chance to properly bodycamp instead of sacrificing a ton of health for nothing when Lazarus revives inbetween your melee strikes or slow abilities like Lava Bomb and Leap Smash.
Wouldn’t be the first time I pick Goliath and do 2-3 melee strikes followed by a Leap Smash. Boom! - Lazarus revived the Hunter before my Leap Smash landed. Come now, that’s ridiculous.

In theory, Lazarus can’t revive a Hunter that is being bodycamped.
Wasn’t that the deal? Bodycamping means Lazarus can’t revive the Hunter, but it means you’ll be sacrificing a lot of health in the process.
In Evolve’s current state, that’s not true. It’s actually very easy to revive a Hunter that is being bodycamped by the Monster.

That might work, yeah. It would also suggest the Monster player to target Lazarus instead of the dead Hunter if he doesn’t want any revives.
Be careful not to make Lazarus immune to any gameplay strategy other than “Just target Laz first”, though.
It is currently already a much better option than baiting Laz by downing someone else first. I only ever try to bait Lazarus as a last-resort when Laz is simply too good at alternating cloaks with Support to be focused.

Imo Lazarus is still trash against decent monsters.

If Monster incapped Hunter and sees Lazarus , monster should go after him . When Laz uses cloak, Monster should run back to inccaped Hunter and camp him, till Lazaruse’s cloak runs out . Then Focus Laz and its done .

If somebody else from Hunters manages to revive the first incapped Hunter , well no problem, he has got the strike

Laz doesen’t need nerfs

@Mr_WiZardGod sorry I didnt realized you wrote the same thing before me :slight_smile:

7 Likes

imo i think premades who know how the game works and are good with their jetpack can pick anything and get away with it…lets wait for monster buffs first and see how laz fares then.

2 Likes

It is kinda off topic, but the way new players handle lazarus is terrifying, i’ve seen people who were so bad that, while playing as him, they would revive players the normal way instead of using the device, every single time, and more often players that revive downed hunters while i rush to revivify them, you can’t use the device if another hunter has started reviving so this always ends with a team full of strikes and a medic that looks like he can’t do his job

The reason I post this is because I think that “just target Laz first” is really the only strategy when a hunter team has their shit together. His speed of revive, cloak recharge with reload speed, heal speed and range and working with a decent support means that it’s hard to know what the hell Laz is doing, and just covering your basis isn’t even good enough. Then to add insult to injury Laz can disappear easily in to the ether after he’s done his work now.

It’d be nice if you could actually counter Laz without needing to completely wipe him out, all other medics have their soft counters. Val and Caira with their LoS and reload cooldown, Slim kind of does too with pushing your target out of his range and keeping yourself out of LoS, but Slim has his own issues.

And sure, Slim can outheal Laz if he’s hitting the monster/wildlife contstantly, but Laz’s healing is on a par with Slim’s burst wise as far as I can see, guaranteed every 11ish seconds by the looks of it :wink: That’s nothing to be sniffed at.

This isn’t my experience, my experience as I think @Rickvs may agree, is that as long as you’re not being actively targeted it’s super easy as Laz to hang around about 10m from the monster, wait for it to swing or use an ability, and then go in and get the rez without any chance of interruption. It doesn’t matter how good a monster you are, though if you’re a better monster you may have more chance of following cloaked Laz.

I feel that if a monster is in that situation where they’ve taken someone down and also manage to track you when you’re cloaked, then that’s the monster outplaying you fair and square. If Laz can sneak a rez in under your nose because you’re locked in to an animation then that’s not so much outplaying IMO.

There is no guarantee of monster buffs coming. I’m not entirely sure what monster buffs could exist outside of reversing some of the knockback changes (which I would disagree with) that would actually change the core issue with Laz play against monsters right now.

Yeah, new players seem to take a few games of gentle nudging before they realise exactly what to do as Laz, or what to do when Laz is on your team.

I’ve said this before, Laz rezzing a camped body is not “right” and never will be imo.

2 Likes

Then it will be an easy win for monsters. Monster just incap one hunter and then he just goes to the next hunter and next etc. All the time Lazarus cant do anything cause they are not dead only incapable. Only not smart monster would kill hunters then to the end. Lazarus have not enough heal power to keep his team alive between the incapacity and dead.

For a good Lazarus and a good team this is no problem. They can do it, but it only will affect bad Lazarus players.

1 Like

He have always been a decent pick against somewhat above average monsters, it’s not new. But he is easier to use, that’s for sure.


Anyway, here is the main problem: You are assuming all Lazarus players use reload on default.
Some people, like me, do not need the faster reload on the cloak and heal burst, so nerfing him just because his synergy with said perk hurt “us” a lot more, while simply making him less attactive to pub players.

He shouldn’t be the healer he currently is, though. Not because of balance reasons, but simply because it ruin is gimmick. His heal burst should optimally only be for him, while his Lazarus Device would be re-balanced to help preventing people easily beat him by bringing everyone to low health and the proceeding to rampage trough everyone.

I disagree for the very reason you mentioned yourself:

If the monster pick up a rock, use firebreath, lightning strike or after shock as you revive, then you deserve the revive.
The monster can already counter the revive process by simply using instant abilities.

A body camping monster is faced with three options:

  • Commiting to camp the body and try to consume it.
  • Commit to another hunter, whenever it’s an attempt to kill another one on top of the first one or to go for Laz.
  • Flee.

If a monster chooses the first option, there is nothing Lazarus can do, unless the monster mess up, which then a revived hunter simply is the price the monster have to pay. The Behemoth featured in the footage you provided was quite clearly not used to Lazarus, considering he did not pay attention to you neither before, nor as you cloacked. At one point he even put a rock wall between the trappers corpse and you on one side and himself on the other.

To put it simply, it would not be fair to nerf a hunter just because he is unique. It would be like nerfing Cabot because you use the damage amp on the monster rather than a teammate. That behemoth guy was not used to go up against Laz, and he had to pay the price of his ignorance thowards the different type of hunters there are in the game.

But this is exactly how hunters have to deal with the monster in any other incap situation, and they get out of it? Laz’s heals aren’t insignificant now, he actually should be healing people, so I don’t know why teams with Laz should get special treatment on how vulnerable they are when someone goes down. If anything they should be more vulnerable thanks to the trade off of coming back with no strikes, IMO.

Impossible against any team that has a modicum of sense. The reality in my experience is that if you try and camp the body to consume it (or run the timer out) then you either have to use abilities to scare off the hunters that are stopping you from eating (which means Laz gets a free rez) or you have to just stand there either bashing the body or generally moving in the vicinity of the body ready to hit it. In the first scenario you’ve wasted time and the hunters have reset themselves, in the second scenario you are going to be creamed by the incoming damage whether the hunter is ever revived or not. It’s a lose lose situation for the monster unless they manage to get a sense of where Lazarus is and successfully focus him. That’s the only counter right now.

Well, he’s less unique than I’d like him to be, he’s a healer now whether we like it or not, and as such he shouldn’t have such free range to revive people up in a strike-free manner.

Out of interest, not that it’s in any way the full picture, but what is Lazarus’s WLR these days @citizenphnix? If you can say.

While I do see your points, and I know how frustrating it is to play against a good laz and team who knows how to utilize him, i want to point out that you are most definitely exaggerating. It’s in no way “easy” to get a revive when a monster is body camping. Laz also just can’t “hang out” 10m away - he has 10seconds on that cloak. After which you will know where he is. there is also the run till 3 strategy you can use. Afterwards if you can’t win as stage 3 Goliath against any laz comp, I’m afraid to say some practice is in order

1 Like

Beating a Laz team is about, right now, time and DPS. If you can DPS the hell out of the hunters in quick succession then it doesn’t matter what Laz is trying to do, so Stage 3 should be a walk in that sense.

However as we all know stage 3 fights are a weird spot, you really need stikes on the hunters in order to overcome the general terrain disadvantage that you face as a monster. You won’t have these strikes against a Laz team at stage 3, and therefore there’s a strong chance (map dependent) that you won’t be able to DPS the way you need to take out the Laz team, even at stage 3. Terrain, competent jetpacking, use of shields and cloaks… they all put you in a situation where things take just long enough that you can’t get out of the cycle of Laz reviving people. Run 'til 3 is not a valid strategy against Laz IMO, you need to engage at stage 2, with full armour, in an arena of your choosing.

BTW, I am actually coming at this subject more as a Laz player. I elited Laz way back near release (not a sign of skill, just the fact that I’ve always been a fan and that I’ve put time in), I’ve argued in the past for his need for a rebalance because he was too weak. I’m now going in to games both with and as Lazarus and feeling that it is easy mode unless we happen to get unlucky or we over-extend.

And you can absolutely hang out 10m away, because all you need to do is wait for the wind up on abilitiy, dash in, revive, dash out. If the monster isn’t winding up abilities then you make your retreat and you simply let the rest of the team pile damage in. If you don’t win games as Laz by reviving everyone, you win them by making the monster pay with too much of it’s health each time someone goes down.

I wasnt talking about “following cloaked laz” why would I do it ? Thing I said was that when I incap a Hunter I automatically target Laz. When Laz uses cloak I imideately run to incapped Hunter and camp his body with Skills and Autoattack. I would target Laz only when he reveals himself.

Anywas.

First of all , if Laz is about 10m from monster uncloaked , Monster should instantly focus him, and make him at least to waste his cloak, but thats not the thing I want to talk about.

I watched the first arena match you posted in link.
Yea you were going against Behemoth, who has got big issues to interrupt Lazarus with his basic attacks. This means Behemoth’s basic attack should be fixed, not Lazarus should be nerfed.

Also the Behemoth you were playing against wasn’t bodycamping at all.
He was just sitting on the body… Not using basic attack or fissure . He doesent event tried to interrupt you. He used only lava bomb but flames doesent interrupts Laz so it was misplay from him.

The point here is : Saying Lazarus needs nerfs, because you were playing against Behemoth who has got broken basic attacks and who also wasn’t even trying to interrupt you, Is premature .

Try to play against Goliath/Kraken/Wraith who are using all his skills and basic attacks to interrupt Laz from reviving(+ when Lazaruses cloak runs out they will instantly focus him) and you will change your mind.

2 Likes

What I don’t understand about these people is that it shows you tutorial for each character when you play as them, and they still don’t understand

He couldn’t interrupt me, he had just used lava bomb on the body area to help highlight me, and I rezed just after he’d finished that animation, he went to hit me but I was able to revive between lava bomb and his basic melee. Second time he fissured the body towards the cabot that was stopping him eating, and I was able to rez from behind while that animation played. In the second arena match I would have revived the assault if I hadn’t jumped too far too since I’d have been rezzing right in his fissure animation. So it’s not true that he wasn’t trying to interrupt me, he did try the first time (and the third or fourth time, where he was successful), the other times he had no opportunity to interrupt.

I’m saying Lazarus needs nerfs because he needs nerfs, not because of one example video I’ve shown you, but because of my experience playing as him, with him and against him over the last month since the various changes to game mechanics have rolled out. He is in a fundementally different and more powerful spot than he was earlier in the game’s lifespan.

I have also played against Goliath and Wraith, and they suffer from exactly the same issue with not being able to actually use abilities if they want interrupt laz because his rez time is shorter than the animation/process of the ability. Believe me, I’m not coming at this from frustration from a few games, quite the opposite, so it’d be great if you could engage in the discussion from that perspective :smile:

Edit: I’ve also played against Kraken with Laz and it’s hit and miss, but Kraken is it’s own particular issue right now I feel. Laz vs Kraken isn’t as bad as it used to be, and all it takes is one of your team mates to stand in front of the snowballs and you’ve pretty much got the easiest rez of the lot.

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks Laz has become a bit on the OP side.