I'm suprised how 'not tanky' the Goliath is compared to the Kraken


#1

Afer analysing some of the leaked alpha footage (forgive me for i have sinned), I noticed that the Goliath only has two more bars of armor compared to the Kraken. Just a reminder, I have seen a bar of armor being melted by Hyde’s flamethrower in 1/1,5 seconds.

Compare this to the Kraken’s advantage of being able to fly, his quick air-dashes that allow him to dodge incoming abilties effectivelly and fact that he can do damage from medium distance, I don’t really see how two tiny bars of armor can make up for that difference.

What are your thoughts?


#2

Really? that seems odd! I don’t explicitly know the numbers, but I’m sure there is some compensation for this. Perhaps it comes in the form of higher close range AOE damage? I could have sworn in older builds his armor went all the way across the health bar - was it scaled back?


#3

@MacMan help if you may


#4

I heard that he also does more damage as well to make up for range. He also has more health (I believe) even if the ‘bar’ is the same.


#5

Yes, but that was when armor bar’s would go down a lot quicker then the health bar. Say a missile from Bucket deals about 1/3rd of a health bar, that would mean that it would deal one whole armor bar (since three armor bars are as strong as one health bar)

Now, health and armor decreases equally fast to avoid confusion. That’s why the armor bar only goes as far as half or 4/10th.


#6

I to have sinned and watched videos and noticed the plummeting health. I think it’s a combination of Monsters not evading’ as much and trying to ‘face tank’ the group. I also don’t see most Goliath’s not really utilizing their charge and leap to move around more.


#7

Keep in mind monsters and Hunters aren’t balanced based off trades and gains. The are based on win loss results. Even if it is only two bars of armor more, as long as the win/loss ratio is the same it would be unfair to give him more. Just like with Laz as long as the win loss ratio is 50 50 he is balanced. It is a unique way of measuring balance that I think gives the game a lot of flavor. Powers or abilities that seem op/up really aren’t as long as they have a way to be overcome. Personally I love it :heart:


#8

I think the kraken abilities are slightly less powerful damage wise, maybe. The burn of the Goliath is pretty much unparalleled as far as I’m concerned. Theres not a massive amount of use being in the air while in combat, except avoiding the fla e thrower. The ranged attack from air seems considerably weaker than melee


#9

Uh, I won’t go TOO Much into specifics, but Goliath is more mobile and “in your face” than Kraken, as a result you tend to be getting knocked around a lot when fighting Goliath whereas Kraken is more pure damage (only vortex makes you flail) compare that to Goliath whose only attack that DOESN’T have CC is flame breath. So you spend less time shooting Goliath than you do Kraken, I think that’s part of where Goliath feels more tanky.


#10

Even though the health bars are the same size on the screen…the amount of health is not the same for both Goliath and Kraken.

Goliath has a lot more health points so he takes longer to take down even after you take out his armor. Kraken doesn’t have as many so his health drops a lot quicker once his armor is depleted.


#11

Thank you poodle time?


#12

That is interesting! I was sure there was something going on behind the scenes, but I wasn’t clear on what. Thanks!


#13

Yes, thanks a lot for clearing that up. Now it is just up to me to calculate how much damage on bar of health/armor can take for each monster.


#14

Those are fine observations. You are right on the actual health and armor numbers. Kraken is very close to Goliath in health and armor (1000 points separate each), but if you didn’t see the values, you’d never guess it while playing. Kraken feels less tanky and doesn’t last as long in a fight. Why? @FrontlinerDelta is on the right track.

Kraken gets shot a lot more than Goliath does.

Vulnerability during attacks - Kraken’s powerhouse attacks (Aftershock and Lightning Strike) make him a sitting duck for many seconds at a time. He can barely move during these attacks. Aftershock is a two second build up. Lightning Strike is three, if memory serves correct. That’s a lot of time to soak damage. Especially if Hyde is melting your face. Kraken is most vulnerable when dealing the most damage to the Hunters.

Air target vs ground target - When Kraken is up in the air, he’s pretty easy to see. Even though he’s a smaller target, he’s usually facing the whole team, which makes him vulnerable to recieving damage from the whole team. Goliath on the other hand, is usually in the middle of the Hunter pack. When you’re shooting Goliath, he’s leaping, charging, moving around you. Kraken is usually fighting from one direction.

Mobility - Goliath has two abilities that can be used for increased movement - Leap Smash and Charge Attack. Kraken has NO abilities that help him traverse. This makes Kraken more vulnerable to Tranqs. Additionally, when Goliath runs, he’s leaping and going from ground cover to ground cover. When Kraken runs, he’s usually in the air, for everyone to see, getting shot in the back.

There is always more to the story than the numbers would indicate. :wink:


#15

So Goliath only has a 2000 point advantage (1000 armor, 1000 health) over Kraken. Interesting! Totally makes sense about being a sitting duck, though.


#16

Well that’s not very sportsman like of the Hunters. >:/


#17

You hunters these days are so uncouth.


#18

Haha, nice…


#19

Mhmm, the positioning game is pretty important as well for when hunters can deal with a monster… if you’ve got Goliath on you, you’re either figuring out how to get away, and probably doing less well in dealing damage. Employing an escape ability and probably switching away from dealing damage (some utility requires wep swap) or stealthing and trying not to be noticed.

Positioning makes Goliaths interactions with hunters really interesting because now movement is very important, if they didn’t think about it or develop that skill or plan how to do things, in the moment you can definitely get punished.

With Kraken being in the air, and having few skills that rely on being near you, you’re never going to be as individually pressured because he’s got access to the entire field for the most part.

Very cool observations I made a while back before alpha :slight_smile:


#20

(If this breaks NDA, please let me know devs, I want to help answer questions but am not sure quite how much I’m allowed to say!)

You’re on to something there, from my experience vs the videos of E3 you have to be VERY careful about getting backed into a corner vs Goliath as he can keep you there by charging, leap smashing, rock throwing, and melee attacking you continuously into the corner.

Whereas Kraken is more about build-up of huge attacks that deal more damage but have less movement. It’s hard to describe but try and compare the interactive trailer fights vs the fights at E3. Everything is more chaotic with Goliath compared to Kraken but Kraken seems to have moves that, if landed, do more damage overall and are more deadly.

I think this reflected in their aesthetic too, Goliath is primal and savage. Look at his eat animation. Look at his attacks. They’re just pure force (except for fire) and knock people around and involve him leaping around and just being IN YOUR FACE!

Kraken looks more composed. When he eats, floats slowly above the corpse picking pieces of it and eating those pieces. He glides through the air. He slings lightning bolts for his attack. Even his main abilities are nice and clean. Vortex is fancy and travels through the air while Kraken floats behind it. Lightning strike is channeled through Kraken (his animation more of concentration than sheer force). Kraken seems more intelligent imo or more cunning while Goliath (still cunning in his own way) wants to TEAR and RIP at things more and these aesthetics translate into their playstyles (Kraken methodically landing skill shots, Goliath getting in and causing chaos).

But anyways, glad to see @MacMan said I was on the right track! I relied on the “cause chaos” to avoid damage (the hunters are disorganized now and not playing optimally) more than actually avoiding the damage by dodging it.