Hunt 3.0 Proposal: Aggressive Monsters Meta

Before I take this Evolve hiatus and dive into some serious Gears of War: Ultimate Edition action, I’ll leave my thoughts on the current balance and design situation.

Considering TRS wanted to increase the fighting at stage 1 and 2, these are my suggested changes:

-Give the monster the most armor stage 1, Stage 2 gets less subsequent armor, and stage 3 gets the least(basically, the current armor schema reversed with low armor at stage 3)

Reasoning: The current design of giving the monsters the lowest armor at stage 1 means fighting is a big risk, and it incentives monsters try to mitigate damage at stage 1. Giving monsters more armor would change the meta into pursuing strikes at stage 1, thus making each subsequent fight less risky when the monster has to deal with reduced armor at every evolution.

-reduce relay health to 20 seconds (previously 40)

This is a big one; relay fights should not be a 10 minute battle of attrition with a staggering of dropship after dropship after dropship, but rather the big boss battle that ends with a bang. Note that the monster would have reduced armor, making a fight then flee situation unlikely. Although hunter teams will be able to kite the monster, this makes it much more difficult to do effectively with a hunter or two remaining. This is an indirect buff to the monsters, giving them a bit more control over relay fights when you have hunters who refuse to fight.

-reduce game time to 12 minutes(previously 20)

This could be considered the “but what about the hunters?” buff, but its actually mainly to avoid long, drawn out games with long stretches of no action. Hunters could “play the objective” by timing out the monster, and this would reduce the effectiveness of a monster who wants never wants to evolve or fight. 20 minutes is too long for hunters to insufferably chase a monster, and also for hunters to insufferably withstand several stage 3 engages where the only thing touched is a monster’s armor and not health.

Gameplay impact:

-Hunters have to carefully chase a monster and respect the potential of a monster with more armor sustain
-Monster can more easily get a strike at stage 1
-Monster cannot rely on huge stage 3 armor pool to run away from fight, then reengage with good chance of winning. Fighting is no longer contained to stage 2 and 3.
-Monster choosing to only run at stage 1 and 2 will have a more difficult time without getting downs
-Monster trying to stall game will have less time to work with(12 minutes instead of 20 minutes)
-Hunters less likely to dome a monster who isn’t trying to evolve
-Holding the dome for evolution domes more likely, making strategy for trappers simpler
-Monster under more time pressure, making sneaking more time costly
-Stage 3 relay fight is typically the “final round”
-in the event of a stage 3 fight with one or two hunters left, a reduced relay health timer helps the monster finish out the game
-decoy style of wraith less effective without getting any early strikes on hunters
-armor amount dictates monster strength and creates an ebb and flow dynamic between hunters and monster, rather than a more cut and dry dynamic of flee till 2 or 3.
-reverse armor schema actually promotes TRS original hunt 2.0 intent of having more monster fights throughout match
-monsters who flee till 3 will have a tough time winning a stage 3 fight
-gameplay more of a back and forth dynamic

Imagine a final relay fight where hunters have strikes on them, and the monster has some health damage, but the monster only has 6 bars of armor. The hunters would be so pumped up with adrenaline because they could go down easily, but the monster would also be on edge because of his low armor and health damage. The monster could only use that armor to go in and take a few shots, after that the hunter could whittle down his real health. Every healing grenade that would miss would feel like a punch in the gut. Every rock throw that would barely miss might make spectators gasp. Every shot made would count, every shot missed would count. This is how the game could be.

TLDR: Give monsters most armor at level 1, then reduce it for each subsequent staging. Stage 3 monster has low armor and cannot fight then flee at stage 3. Reduce relay health time to 20 and overall match length to 12 minutes. Hunters would have a harder time playing keep away games at the relay and monster could more easily finish out a stage 3 fight if he has a down or two. Games would be faster paced, and monster would have to be more aggressive in the early parts of the game. Monsters who try and run would have a harder time in general.

I do not have the time right now(or motivation lol) to really delve on why I don’t agree with this so I shall say expect a post later unless someone posts my thoughts then I will just jump in.

Damn well there is literally no point going stage 3 then, hunt mode might as well not exist If that’s the case i’tll just be arena mode

The Monster should need to flee at Stage 1, and getting domed then should be a huge setback.

That is kind of the point of Hunt mode - the Hunters try to kill the Monster before it gets too strong.

Lowering the timer would weaken the flee strat, but it wouldn’t solve the fundamental problem of evasion and armor doing too much to negate early domes.

Raising armor would make it very difficult to damage health against a non-aggressive Monster, and make getting a strike without taking health damage too easy.

This change would mostly shift Hunter strategy into playing the timer by just trying to keep the Monster from Evolving, with less early aggression on the Hunter’s part to damage them.

Hunt should be about tracking and sneaking (and less of a marathon race), while Arena is the mode focused on combat.

I pretty much don’t agree with these suggestions, unfortunately. A bit more armour doesn’t help a stage 1 against a competent hunter team, whereas less armour at stage 3 means that any early damage is as good as game over.

6 Likes

This is the point.

Right now monsters are trying to evolve to stage 2 ASAP with doing any stage 1 fighting. Now a monster has a tough decision to make: fight and go for downs or go for clean stage 2 evolve w/ armor.

Of course hunters would have a tough time doing health damage stage 1, but they can retaliate with the evolve dome and get health damage that way. There will still be sneaking, but no moreblindly rushing the monster like assaults are still doing. Instead of just madly rushing the monster like they do now, hunters would have to show restraint but still keep on the monster.

The tension is fairly static and one sided right now: its hunter favored until monster gets enough health and armor, and the moment shifts the other way.

The idea of giving the monster more armor stage 1 is not really crazy when you consider how it compares to the current fully healthed/armored goliath with stage 3 abilities.

A stage one monster with just one 3 point ability or three 1 point abilities is not that strong, but can get a strike or two.

All the current stage 1 monster needs is more armor to tank an early fight, and that’s it. It’s really not a big change, but it would result in a totally new meta that TRS has wanted.

Give the monster as much armor as it needs to get a strike or two stage one.

The meta would shift from fleetill3, to snowballing strikes.

Get a strike or two stage 1. Get a strike or two stage 2. By the time you hit stage 3 you will have hunters in a weaker position and if the monster does decently enough then there is enough health for a good stage 3 fight.

It puts, or keeps, too much power to decide the flow of the game in the Monster’s hands, where it should be determined by successful or failed hunting.

If the Monster can safely attack whenever they feel like it and is punished for staging up, what’s the point in trying to Hunt and leaving the team vulnerable to ambush?

I think we have opposite opinions on this - I’d like the Hunt to be more intelligent and become a death sentence in combat based on performance for one side or the others.

I haven’t read the full thing (yet) but I can say I completely disagree with lowering the timer to 12 minutes. I have had grand full scale fights that start stage one and go to stage three that were really close and not the least bit boring. Full throttle start to finish. Sometimes I don’t even make it to stage three until the 12 minute mark. That will hurt the game a lot.

It’s not whenever. The monster would be somewhat strong, fully armored stage 1.

The point would be to make the monster have some counter play at stage 1.

Monster needs enough armor to threaten the hunters, but not so much the monster never wants to evolve.

Monsters could choose to continually reengage stage 1, but he sacrifices getting stage 2 damage/utility. Right now a stage 2 evolution is the biggest damage boost to monsters, and on someone like Kraken it actually gives him a chance(maybe not a big one) to kill the hunters outright without having to go to stage 3.

Just no to everything

1 Like

Can’t say I like any of these suggestions. I for one like to farm strikes at Stage 2.

These suggestions basically destroy what Evolve’s concepts are about.

Stage 1 - Hunter advantage
Stage 2 - Equal
Stage 3 - Monster advantage

And TRS has already done stuff to encourage S2 and even S1 fighting. There’s no reason to make Stage 1 the harder monster to kill. It just makes ZERO sense. Its always urgent for hunters to get early damage in at stage 1, just as it is urgent for the Monster to get to Stage 3 to have a better chance at winning. Also, imagine how this would work out in Defend, on the rare occasions it gets played? Basically forcing Monsters to pick Kraken and does everybody really want that? (NOTE : I don’t hate Kraken)

Speaking of monsters, have you considered what this would do to Wraith? Why you would Evolve at all as Wraith becomes a legitimate question. S1 Warp Blast Wraith would dominate.

Reducing the timer to 12 also throws stealth out the window. My playstyle has me at Stage 2 at the 3 minute mark and then farming strikes through the 8-13 minute mark before deciding if its appropriate to evolve to Stage 3. That’s arguably an aggressive playstyle, but with a time limit like that, I would have less time to make comfortable progress, and I could even be hurting my chances badly in the process. All it would take would be one bad fight.

To be blunt, if this were incorporated, it would be the most heinous monster nerf in Evolve history. Only Kraken the Karken could have a hope of surviving in such a pn environment

2 Likes

Yes, so lets give S1 even more incentive to not fight and give Wraith’s and Behemoth’s more reason to decoy and rockwall spam the relay at S3.
**

No it wouldn’t, it would just give them more reason to run at S1 being they are still weakest at S1.

Although it makes it less risky to lose health at S1, all games would then start and end at S2 because no one with a brain would ever go S3 due to less armor, unless they desperately need the health.


Yes, let’s give even more reason, as previously mentioned, for Behemoth to cheese rock wall Wraiths to decoy.

It’s only a 10 minute battle of attrition if the Trapper can’t dome and the Monster runs, and Assault never deals damage.

Monsters with reduced armor would never go S3 and if they do would make them as a hit and run, leaving well before there is a dent in their armor, this doesn’t do anything except slow the game down even more.

Are you absolutely crazy? 12 minutes? With 1 second dome times and how OP certain Hunter comps are they can easily pressure the Monster until the 10 minute mark and then stray a bit behind until the timer runs. This already happens with 20 minutes, 12 minute games would be a crazy buff the the Hunters.

Yes, now you’ll have short, boring games, of the Monster struggling to even enjoy the game. God forbid Hunters ever have to put work in to win.


No they can’t. Giving them more armor doesn’t give them more of a chance to get strikes, they still have the lowest damage potential, again, making games end at S2.

It’s actually exactly contained at S2.

They already lose against any competent team, forcing even decent Monsters to be handicapped for the weakest links isn’t fair.

This is exactly what the last update tried to change, WHY ON EARTH BRING IT BACK?

Sneaking is already completely nonviable, let’s just buff Hunters even more while we’re at it.

It’s ineffective now, this will change literally nothing.

No, it actually reverses it, IF Monsters choose to fight, it’ll be intense at the start and become boring later on. This shouldn’t happen, fights should be constant without, not just be at the early or late game.

What do you not get that this is already near impossible for them to win against a good team.

No, this brings it back to the “One fight to end them all” mechanic which is exactly what TRS is trying to prevent.

And this is how the game SHOULDN’T BE.



These changes will break the game, not for the better but instead for the worst. If these changes are ever made, I’m quitting Evolve because these will only nerf the ever-living hell out of Monsters and buff the already too powerful Hunters even more. This is ridiculous.


##TL;DR These changes are a ridiculous buff to the Hunters and a gigantic nerf to Monsters, I apologize if this reply comes off as rude but these changes will make the game so Hunter favored no one will ever want to play Monster. The whole point is getting stronger as you stage up, not gaining more damage but becoming weaker. The whole point is that Hunters are supposed to kill Monsters at S1 or S2, if a Monster gets S3 then it is your own fault and you’re in for a fight and if you have strikes, it is most likely going to be a loss for you. This is how the game should be, not how you suggest.


#Edit:

###As others have said, including myself, this ruins the entire concept of the game and not many, if anyone, agrees with these suggestions, I’m sorry but this just changes the entire game, any health damage at S1 or S2 is devastating at S3 and that’s just not how it should be, the game is at it’s best right now, with a few exceptions to Hunter comps and dome time, but this is about as balanced as the game has ever been. It needs some adjusting as is and this is just not the way to go about it.

1 Like

This patch was supposed to encourage aggressive monsters.
…People just decided not to. So whether they make it a patch more for “aggressive” monsters or not, players are what decide the meta. They could flee til three for all they care, specially with your relay suggestion. Reducing timer isn’t really an issue because people can take the feed speed perk or the right feeding path.

FTFY.

As @ToiletWraith says, people decide the meta, and IMO more armour at stage one doesn’t say to people “here, have more opportunity at a strike” because an on point damage comp will rip through that slightly more armour quicker than you’ll be able to use it. What it does say is you can kite damage for longer and not take permanent health damage.

This encourages the holding the dome meta and returns us to where we were pre 5.0, but worse, because if the monster gets to stage 3 limping around at stage 2 for a while, it now has less armour to try to mount it’s final attack. Without more armour later the game is decided earlier than the final fight.

Monsters that still flee right now are, in my opinion, just not confident. Or they’re facing Laz, in which case hunters only have themselves to blame for the monster trying to avoid engagement until the best possible singular moment for them. Or they’re facing Hank, in which case the hunters only have themselves to blame for the monster choosing to mitigate damage since it’s damage output won’t be enough to break through the defense.

The only changes this game needs is to rework Laz (as it ever has done) and to rework Hank (which has been needed for a few months now). Combined with the upcoming changes to make it a longer feeding requirement to get to stage 2 this would both increase the likelihood of those stage 1 fights, and not leave the monster feeling that they can’t do anything.

More food to get to Stage 2? Interesting. Does Stage 1 pack enough of a punch to give the Hunters a black eye right now or no?

I typically flee until Stage 2 before I start farming for strikes. Would I be able to do so a little earlier?

I believe so.
I’ve stage one’d a lot of people with wraith this patch.

Oh, good. Next time I’ll have to see how I do with good old Goliath in a Stage 1 fight. Although I typically spread my moves so its 1 Rock, 1 Leap and 1 Flame, but maybe I should run 2 Leap and 1 Flame? I just feel more comfortable with Leap Smash.

Mmh, spreading is good, I would say rock leap and flame is good, though maybe swap leap for charge since its useful nowadays(?)