Games that Need the Nemesis System


#1

Discuss here about which franchises should use the Nemesis system from Shadow of Mordor.
I think some games that should use this are
Assassin’s Creed-Fail to kill a target, they will set up defenses or gain gear to counter the way you play. Did you sneak a lot? Then they will guard entrances and secret passages more.
Pokémon-Didn’t catch a pokemon or lost to a trainer? They will remember your pokemon set and will try to counter it.
What games need this system? Please state the francise/game and describe how the game should use it.


#2

Personally, I dislike the Nemesis system in the idea that if you lose to something/someone he/she/it becomes stronger. That means if you lose once, you’re more than likely going to lose again assuming you aren’t able to get stronger. Why penalize death with a harder difficulty? However, being able to influence other forces has a MUCH better connotation to it.


#3

And yet, the more you win at something, the stronger you get in 99.9% of the RPGs and RTSs that we all love! About time AI gets fair shake!

I really liked the Nemesis system…in theory. I personally found that if I lost, 9 times out of 10 it wasn’t because I was not strong enough, but because I didn’t approach the encounter correctly.

That said, there was a vast improvement, I felt, to be made to that system before it really shined. Though I don’t have time to list all my grievances, it didn’t quite feel ‘complete’ to me. (vague I know!)

Now, I will give @MaddCow this, it has to be well thought out, or it could frustrate a player greatly.

As for games it could be fun in. Any of those types of games AC, Batman Arkham, but even some RTSs where you are doing a campaign map or such perhaps.


#4

Oh I’m all for having hard difficulties, I play everything on the hardest setting. I’m just thinking of the ‘average’ gamer. The ‘average’ gamer isn’t super good. They are average. If an average player approaches something and loses and it gets stronger, the average player will just get frustrated instead of learning to adapt :stuck_out_tongue: Personally, I’ve felt AI in general has been needing a ‘bloodthirsty’ difficulty for many years now.


#5

Honestly I thought the system was great, but rather than that same orc who keeps turning up at inconvenient times and refusing to stay dead which was cool, the system eventually turned into some sort of orc pokemon gotta catch them all game and the real appeal of the nemesis system seemed to be taken away for me.

I think it could have helped the game to not have branding at all or completely change it to compliment that orc who was screwing you over rather than remove him.

Also @MaddCow I disagree that the orc is just stronger, the orc was no harder to kill directly in combat, unless it had become a Warchief, and unless you forced that it didn’t seem to happen by itself. The way to kill the orcs easily just become more and more specific. So a low level orc can be killed by sneezing, but a high level orc will need to be researched and planned for and each time you lose he will remind you next time and require even more planning to get that perfect kill.

I would have disliked it greatly if the orcs had just gained random % damage and health buff each time I lost and I had to just fight a harder opponent I would have felt like it sucked. Then again I do play dota =S


#6

A fair point but it was done well in this game because it never really blocked you off. What I mean is it never really forced you to have t kill the punk you made super strong. It would be kind of shitty if you had it for a boss where you just made him invincible because you kept losing. In Shadow at the very least you could tuck your tail and run if your level 20 super orc rival decided to show up.


#7

See, I feel that what would have made the Nemesis System better would be that whichever moves you used the most against the common orcs that belong to the Orc Leader, he would have higher defenses with. So if you favor 1-3 attacks, those 1-3 attacks would suck while combating him. This would be done whether you win or lose the engagement.

I would also like to have seen more Orcs retreat and THEN come back stronger against your movesets and stronger.


#8

I agree the system could have used more polish and development but I was extremely impressed by what they managed to do, something like that in assassins creed would have been much more interesting when killing a Templar network in a city than the stupid prescripted run across rooftops in a certain time missions.

Most of my friends, from casual to hardcore games really liked SoM so the nemesis system was doing plenty right because it sure as hell wasn’t the sub part storyline hooking them it.

Edit: also I loved killing orcs who had killed my friends, then having the alert come up that some one has killed an orc who killed me. Even though it didn’t have direct multiplayer that was a really nice touch.


#9

I think it’s really just the beginning for the nemesis system and what it can do… it has so much potential lol


#10

I agree. I’m not saying I’m against it, just that it seemed odd that the rewards of failure resulted in a stronger opponent. I would assume the opposite. The better you do the more your ‘nemesis’ is prepared for you. However, that is more game mechanics and immersion than the system itself :stuck_out_tongue:


#11

I just honestly think in the next few years most games will have some kind of variation of the nemesis system where it makes sense. I think it opened the door to the idea of enemies really changing and adapting in unique ways.


#12

Agreed. I’m hoping this is the AI boom that I’ve been hoping for. I want harder difficulties to have better AI programming, not more HP/DEF/ATK etc… such a cop out :frowning:


#13

Exactly… That’s what I think will take single player gaming to the next level in truth. I think the best thing for me with Shadow was seeing glimpses of the future in the Nemesis system and how AI in games is really going to be crazy down the line. There was a few times I was honestly amazed in Shadow… like I could still see the tricks behind the trade just barely but it still lead to some really great immersive moments… made you really feel like it was your story, and your’s alone (even thought you knew it was just clever programming).

Like what could a game like Skyrim or something do with that type of system.


#14

This may or may not be a good idea but I think that the elder scrolls should have the nemesis. Well, to be precise, skyrim. E.g there are heaps of factions in the game and the a.i should be promoted or something or maybe get better armor or upgraded skills so if you escaped them or they escaped you, they will be ready next time, meaning that the a.i will be stronger and smarter


#15

Skyrim/ the next elder scrolls was the first game I really thought of that good make great use of that. My next thought was Mass Effect of some space game lol. Space nemesis :open_mouth:


#16

I wished this to however I feel it would be weird with elder scroll or fallout unless they allow u to die and come back.
But then I would want us to be able to get ranks and promotion in the game and or make our own faction that we can join rise up to become a legendary character


#17

There is a mod for skyrim that let’s you come back to life because you have the soul of the dragon, however you loose all of your stuff and you need to get it all back from where you died. Sadly I forgot what the mod is called :frowning:


#18

I meant as an actual mechanic in game Also sounds exactly like dark souls which would kinda ruin the franchise to have u go tht far to get yr stuff back as you carry everything so maybe u lose a little of things however not important things like armor, weapons, and essential ( ore, leather,gold, and jewels or high quality things) but I still rather a mechanic and reason why u can come back to life like how mordor did in the intro


#19

Not sure if it is quite the same but it’s called “no death mod” and you wake up unconscious in a random spot and have to go on a quest to find the bandits that stole your stuff.


#20

Not exactly the mod I was talking about but similar, I saw it on one of brodual’s videos