Game timer runs out - Draw instead of monster lose, plus a few more ideas


#1

Hi, all

I recently started seeing a new pattern in hunt games, where hunters choose not to attack the monster, but simply let the timer run out. E.g when i play as a goliath…then its very easy for hunters with jetpack booster to just hop up and down a ledge, or just go circle around an obstacle and … wait as timer goes down. Its quite easy to do even if you are alone…but with 2 hunters…its … too easy.

In one of the recent games, a player playing with cabot, just waited outside the reactor building, and shot me through the wall, as i tried to go and destroy the reactor. Just…make one shot, if monster starts to follow, run…climb…and circle around an obstacle. I had a full line of sight with him, and he didnt shoot…just to let the timer run out( i was lv 3 monster with almost full armor ) and i lost because of the timer. I think its quite unfair to lose points in a game where hunters are on the run.

I think its…it would be a good idea, to let the “damage done” in game talk for itself, and decide the winner based on that, if the timer runs out.
In some games, Ive killed hunters like…3 times over , and that one hunter lets the timer run out, and i still lose like 10 points, quite frustrating.

The fact is…monster failed to destroy the relay…but, it was a hunt, and hunters didnt hunt the monster down, and lost as well.
If calling the game draw, when timer runs out at the end is a bit too much to ask, then…how about stopping the timer…not when the monster attacks/gets attacked, but when there is a line of sight between monster and a hunter ?

  1. Reduce - Limit - Add reasonable cooldown timers to “fire and forget” skill-less things in hunters arsenal.
    By that, i mean things like sunny’s shield drone, bucket’s attack drones, emet’s healing sticks etc.
    Having those things makes playing as a hunter alot more easier than playing with a monster. To me it seems that hunters are a bit over powered…in a sense that its quite easy for a “skilled” hunter to defeat a monster that is 1-2 ranks higher( master ) than he is, but not vice versa. I think its because of all the “auto” things that take the thinking out of the equation, and lets hunters just shoot…where as the monster has to know exactly when/how he uses his skill, when to retreat, when and where to fight etc etc.

A group of “determining rank” - first timer hunters should be = to determining rank first timer monster…but it isnt so, in my opinion.
When i started playing evolve, i lost pretty much 40 games in a row as a monster. When playing first time as a hunter, i won quite often…maybe every third round or so.
Even now, after ive played 150 rounds as a monster, i still lose to “determining rank” first timers about 50/50 % of the time.

I would like to see things organized more like Hank’s arsenal, where using one ability/weapon rules out/stops you from using another, so you have to make strategic decisions, what weapons and when to use them.

Val is quite good example too, when healing, she cant shoot, and vice versa, Emet on the other hand, drops the healing sticks when encountering the monster( heals all the hunters at the same time ) AND gets to do significant damage.

  1. The birds
    Given that the hunters have pretty good tech for finding the monster ( mostly maggie ), it seems like an overkill to have birds give away the monster’s position on the first things he eats. Quite often its … literally the first thing the monster eats, that signals his location. Its frustrating when…you sneak, do deceptive maneuvers to hide from the hunters, only to get your location pointed out in spite your efforts.

I would like to see monsters size/armor/sneaking play a role in triggering the birds when eating.
e.g the bigger the monster is / the more armor he has / he doesn’t sneak, - increases the odds of triggering the birds.
And…instead of triggering the birds as soon as the monster starts eating, it would be nice to at least wait until he is done eating and let the birds go after the remains once the monster is “n” steps away. ( He is the apex predator after all )

  1. DLC - Im fine with dlc… and more or less with the price…But, i think it would better for gamers to buy hunters in a pack of 4( one of each class), so, when you buy a hunter pack, you will always get to play with a new character. I got myself a new assault character, but…took a while before i could actually play with it, because in matchmaking you quite often don’t get the role you want. If players got 4 hunters in one DLC - they would get to play with them right away.

  2. Game error - bug usually means you lose.
    I think connection errors and game bugs should be counted as “neutral” or in player’s favor if he was winning at the time of the bug/error.

E.g ive quite a few times had some kind of “protocol error”, or timeout errors that will throw me back to lobby. Once the monster just fell through the ground ( wraith, whilst teleporting ), and i kept falling until i got the message saying that im leaving the game area and i lost. (image in link ) monster falling through ground

Quite a few times wraiths “abduct” ability froze, and the monster just hovered in the air while hunters killed it.

Then, not only that the error was frustrating, losing points adds to that frustration…and to top it off, you get matchmaking penalty as well.

As a side note…if you are away from keyboard then the monster gets declared “abandoned/inactive” too quickly. It has happened a few times when i wanted to change the volume, minimized the game, turned on the volume, and when i returned, i got a message saying that i was inactive for too long.

  1. Add an option to chat with the monster or if such option is already available, add a tutorial/tip explaining how to do so.
    For obvious reasons, it makes sense not to allow monster hear / read what hunters are chatting, but, it would be fun to chat with the monster as well.

What i have in mind is something like
Press enter to speak within your team
Press alt + enter to speak with everybody
press shift + enter to speak to the monster only.

/* Updated */
7) I think the chat messages that are sent whilst waiting for the game to start should remain visible for a longer time…or have the last “n” messages always be stay visible. The messages only last for a few seconds and it’s very easy to miss them.
Alternatively…when a player presses enter, to chat, it could also make the last “n” messages visible, to provide previous context in case players have forgotten something.

  1. I quite often keep the game minimized when waiting for a match. If i play as a hunter, and a match is about to start, the game icon on task bar changes to orange, so i know that a match was found and can join the game.
    However, for some reason, the same doesnt seem to happen when playing as a monster. Some kind of desktop notification/alert would be nice to have.

  2. Related to point 8, waiting times for games are sometimes really long( For my timezone at least ), 20min - half an hour, which is somewhat unacceptable when you have purchased a multiplayer game, but cant play it. I understand that we cant force people to buy the game, and get more players into multiplayer, BUT… how about having “free to play” periods for everyone when player’s count drops too low ?
    Many games on steam have “free to play” periods for a few days. Evolve could have free to play periods whenever / as long as player count is below certain minimum. This way, those who paid for the game, can play without waiting for eternity and … TRS may lure in some new players who get addicted to the game during these periods.

I know this post may seem like all negative, but it isnt :slight_smile:
I like the game allot and i will keep playing it for a while at least.


#2

I don’t know what you did, but the timer should have stopped. At least I think it should have IF you were in a combat situation. And to make him stop doing whatever, just attack him. I don’t know, you’re very vague about the situation.

Maybe you’re just not good at monster. :confused:

Ummm no. Why would the winner be decided like this? Doesn’t make too much sense.

Well I would think programming something like this would be impossible. And if you didn’t kill the hunters within the time limit, that’s mainly your fault for not engaging in fight to pause the timer, let alone kill a lone hunter.

Well hunters need to be strategic on item placement. You’re basically saying hunters can throw items wherever they want and not have to worry about it. This is NOT the case at all. And as a monster, you do need to think a lot more. You’re facing 4 opponents. It’s logical.

This calls for a complete rework of item abilities, which would be the most unnecessary change ever.

False. You’re first two attempts at eating are free. The chance of carrion birds increase from then.

Notice how much balanced t5 release was compared to t4? Yeah, that’s mainly why they’re staggered. So we don’t have problems like Torvald at launch.

This, I can agree with.

You must have been taking all the time in the world if this happens to you.

As you said you literally said yourself, this wouldn’t make sense.

Now of course, this is all just my opinion. Honestly though, I pretty much disagree with all of these changes you say. They don’t seem very thought and mostly make 0 sense. And saying things how you constantly lose as monster and call the buoys “sticks,” tells me you’re not very experienced.


#3

I think you need to work on your ‘nice’ replies :smiley_cat:

To the OP, first of all, welcome to the forums! Second of all, the entire game mode of Hunt is balanced around the fact that both sides have 2 win conditions. The monster can kill the hunters or destroy the relay, and the hunters can kill the monster or survive the timer. If you make the timer a draw, you take away a win condition from the hunters, thus giving the monster the advantage of being able to deny the hunters the one chance they have left. If a monster knows he can’t win a relay fight, he can just run around the map until the timer runs out to force a draw. As for the LOS thing, I think this is probably impractical from a programming standpoint.

On your other points, well, I’m not gonna type out a wall of text like XMetrusX did, but I agree with him on most of his points.


#4

There are probably worse things I could say. :stuck_out_tongue: I understand what you mean though, so sorry to the op if I offended you in anyway.


#5

As i said, it would be nice to chat with the hunters if im a monster, and vice versa.
Its obvious that hunters want to chat without the monster hearing the chat, hence different key combinations.
Simply using the enter = chat without monster hearing
alt+enter = chat with everyone

I wasnt saying that every character should be like that…i said i would like to see things organized “more like” hank’s arsenal.
By that, i mean, hunters would have to make strategic choices when / where and on whom they use their abilities.

Thats kind of my point…in fact, its exactly my point ( i just wasnt clear enough i guesss ).
I didnt say we should remove these abilities, just…limit them/add cooldown, so that it would matter more where you place them. And to motivate the monster more, to destroy the shield dome/emets healing buoys, etc. Atm, you can pretty much throw those things at any high ground and be done with it. If monster destroys them, you throw new ones right away. Higher cooldown/charging time would force hunters to think more strategically when they place their drones, and where they place them.

And…this is one of the reasons why i made my first point about the “skill less” abilities, Because its more difficult to play as a monster, we shouldn’t give hunters too many AI controlled drones/abilities that they just throw out and have AI do the thinking for them. [quote=“XMetrusX, post:2, topic:81725”]
I don’t know what you did, but the timer should have stopped. At least I think it should have IF you were in a combat situation. And to make him stop doing whatever, just attack him. I don’t know, you’re very vague about the situation.
[/quote]

That point was mainly for behemoth, but it applies to other monsters too.
In my case, cabot shot me, and indeed the timer stops…but then, i have to choose, either to go after him, or destroy the relay.
I cant destroy the relay because…well, if i try, he will shoot at a distance.
If i go after him, he will run and circle around a high obstacle. With jetpack booster perk, his maneuverability is much better than goliath, so he can just keep running around. While he is running, he doesnt shoot, so the timer starts again, even though im going after him. So yeah…round and round it goes :smiley: until the other hunters arrive and do the same.

Not shooting the monster at the end is…a good strategy, but it shouldnt be. I havent actually seen all 4 hunters do this but…it would be interesting to see how it would work out. 4 hunters all run in different direction from the relay, and dont shoot the monster unless he starts attacking the relay. If lazarus or emet are in the game, then it would get even more interesting.
4 hunters could probably put enough distance between each other and delay the game so that the previous fallen hunters would come back, and the cycle would repeat. As i sayd, i havent seen anyone play like this when 4 hunters are all in game. But…its something to try :smiley:

Anyways…i would really like if timer would be stopped by having a line of sight with the monster/hunters.

PS: as a quick and simple update for consistency, i think the monster should start with one “unit” of armor, because he always starts the game eating.


#6

That is not a good gauge of whether or not your phrasing is alright. In fact, it’s a terrible one. Your reply seemed like you were talking down when this person clearly had legitimate suggestions and good intentions, as well as being open for discussion. I get that it wasn’t your intent, but a quick re-read always helps me edit myself. Not trying to tell you what to do or anything, but giving my opinion. Apologies if I also seemed like I was condescending.

To the OP and on topic, I’ve never agreed with either the Relay or Timer as game mechanics, so getting rid of them both would be cool with me. A Hunt should be a Hunt and if time runs out, that shouldn’t be an auto-win for anyone. Nullifying the match, so nobody is affected, would be better. No points lost or gained.

People have been suggesting for a while that rank and points should be awarded or deducted based on performance rather than wins or losses. Good play is rewarded, even if your team lost and if your team won, but you were a gimp, they’d get points and you’d get none. It’s a reasonable way to rank and is most certainly more accurate in terms of skill levels for matchmaking. Basically, being a good player is recognized, even if your team lost, and vice versa. This way, people who get paired with shit teams initially aren’t governed by that and can instead still rank up based on their performance rather than relying on three other people to also do their jobs. It also makes it so if a single person drags the whole team down, not everyone suffers for it.

Also, welcome to the forums.


#7

I’m 10th Wraith in the world and I approve this post. I was telling from the beginning monster lost game due to run out timer is unfair because BOTH of the parties didn’t fulfil their main target.


#8

They did exactly this some updates ago. They reduced the maximum number of deployables from 5 to 3, because they felt the monster would fight the deployables more than the hunters. They can’t really reduce it any further without making some kits/characters completely useless.

There are ways to deal with it. You don’t get birds on your very first meal. You don’t get birds in caves. And since the probability of getting birds increases with every meal, it’s better to go for mammoth birds or something with 2-4 meats instead of feeding on reavers.
If there would be a way to completely, to 100%, avoid birds, then the hunters can already give up and stay at the relay until the stage 3 monster comes to them. The reason there are birds is to counter sneaking. And it should stay like that.


#9

The monsters job is destroy the objective in the time limit. The hunters job is to defend it.

Its not a death match like people seem to think. There’s arena for that bro. It usually just turns into one because of conflicting interests.

If the monster dies then the hunters have protected it.

If the monster kills the hunters then there is no buffer, so monster auto wins, because they could take it out after they are dead but that would just be silly and tedious in each match. Especially stage one wins.

Saying the monster shouldn’t lose because of time is like saying if all hunters die, they should all respawn as long as the relay isn’t destroyed. Which I’m sure monster players would hate no?

On that note my timer win with Cabot.


#10

No! There’s defend mode for that. The mode we are talking about is HUNT and as you can tell by the name of it its all about hunting not defending.


#11

Defend and hunt have the same basic concept.

You defend in defend because he’s already s3. So there’s few reasons to fight away from extra damage from turrets against something that has the advantage.

You hunt in hunt because he’s a weaker stage one. And when the monster hits stage3 it becomes a defend match no? You sit at relay and wait, unless the monsters almost dead.

Here’s some stuff I found on the issue.

@plaff said
"Originally (before the game was out), once you destroyed the power relay a bunch of colonists would run out and you had to kill them in order to win, canonically that was why it was so important. You were supposed to be saving them by killing the Monster, so by failing to protect the relay you put the colonist lives in jeopardy. This was scrapped, so now I’m not sure why it’s important"

Meaning if monster didn’t get to the colonists, they lost.

This seems to be the leading back up theory since that one was, as mentioned, scrapped.

@BearStream said
"No one knows what the monsters want. All we know is that they hate the Patterson tech, they can travel from planet to planet, and they will stop at nothing to destroy the Patterson tech, humans are just in the way."

The most accepted reason I’ve heard of why they hate the tech is because it tears holes in Cherenkov space, which seems to be the most accepted origin of the monsters.

If any of this is incorrect please correct me bearstream or plaff.


#12

It cant be auto-draw, because monster who doesnt have a change to win will run till the time is out. That is by far worse outcome, and pretty boring to play and spectate

It would also upset the balance of the trappers. Tracking trappers like Maggie/Crow would be much needed in the end when monster doesnt need to eat (already stage 3 full armor, but low hp / or monster who doesnt simply want to fight and not to be found with low armor) in order to find the sneaking monster before times runs out and draw is declared.

What you do as a monster. Last one is support, right? He shoots, you smell, you attack, he cloaks, you sniff for footprints, find him? sneak bounce for win, dont find him? fine, the cloak will run out and you find the support and kill him after the timer. Hunters have to fight 2mins without their support.

If you cant hit the hunters kiting around the pilars or other objects, practise! It isnt that hard, one sneak pounce (which has huge radius) and you win. Tadaa!

What should be removed from the game immediately, is the if hunters shoot from more than 70 meters the monster, timer wont stop. That is game breaking and induces from type of victory conditions to which monsters dont have a counter. Think about Wraith Trap, you can get more than 100m to several directions (out of smell range) and shoot to the relay, if monster hunts you he will lose a lot of time for 2-3 hunters. Probably minutes, this destroyes idea of quick-shot if not fixed.


#13

Good point, thats why i also proposed having a “line of sight” requirement.
Or…we could stop the timer when the monster is within relay “area”.
There are ways to solve the timer condition in a more fair and elegant way ( in my opinion ).
In general, losing to the timer as lv 3 monster with full hp and armor…is frustrating. And, to be honest, when i play as a hunter, and get a timer win, then its not very fun. I like wins where we kill the monster, not where we just run and hide.

Agreed :slightly_smiling:
Im sure it would be quite tricky to work out the formula for evaluating the performance since some player abilities are so different.
But in general, Evolve already has reasonable number of users, so we could use the average performance stats for each division rank as a base line, and if you are above the baseline, you gain points, if less, then you lose points.

Occasionally i get matched with monsters that are 3-4 ranks higher than me ( if there are few players online, ive been bronze expert and had a match with silver skilled ) . In the end, we lost, but, put up a good fight and monster only had like 10-15% of hp left, and no armor. So, i lost only 1 point, but, i think it would have been reasonably fair to actually earn a few points in such case.


#14

Then remove relay win for monster.

From a hunter standpoint it’s a pussy way to win. The timer is for the hunters to alternately win outside of killing the monster, and the monster can either kill the hunters or destroy the relay.

It only makes sense to remove the relay if the timer results a draw.

Because if the relay stays, the monster is almost dead, and can’t get a relay win, then they go hide and it counts as a draw, so he doesn’t loose.

Gee seems fairsnicker


#15

If the monster can shake off the hunters with such distance that he can destroy the relay, then the hunters were pretty bad at hunting.
Usually, when monster destroys the relay, the match is already decided, 3 out of 4 hunters are killed and one is on the run. They usually have 2 strikes as well, so … a few hits and they are dead. It just speeds up the inevitable.

But, if you read my posts, then i also proposed an alternative solution to removing the timer win/calling it a draw.
When timer runs out, we could assess players performance, and decide winner based on that.
If monster managed to give hunters 3 strikes or more, and … monster didnt lose more than half of his lives then, he could be the winner, and vice versa, if hunters havent died more than “n” times, and monster has lost most of his lives then…he loses.


#16

The only times I see timer ended games is when our trapper sucks and continuously fails at doming the monster; combined with a monster whose absolutely intent on fleeing till stage 3.

I’m sorry but if timer issues are a frequent issue, than that tells me you need to adjust your playstyle. Be more agressive and I guarantee you’ll alleviate the issue.

As for the rest… yeah, TL;DR.


#17

All this sounds like it was written by someone who’s just not that good at monster.
Source: I am also not that good at monster and had many of the same thoughts before I gave up on it.

In Hunt mode the timer has to be like it is for the game mode to work, because it forces a fight to happen (unless the monster is trolling). A good monster basically has full control over whether and when and where (until stage 3) to engage, so it makes sense that they are punished with a loss if they decide not to. Nest is the opposite - Hunters lose on time, and that works for that game mode as well due to the rules and the objectives. That said, I can imagine a Hunt-type game mode where the monster begins at stage 1 and evolves but without the relay fight - they’d still need to find some way to force a conflict though, to prevent losing teams from just running out the timer for a draw.

Passive abilities are fine. If you hate them now, be glad you weren’t around when we had 5 deployables each. That said, they were still fine then, but I can understand the frustration that brought about the great deployables nerf (and made Bucket into a literal trash can).


#18

When the hunters run, the monster wins by relay.
When the monster runs, the hunters win by time.

That’s fair.

It encourages fighting.

If you let the timer run out as a monster, then it either means you were running away too much (= not even attacked the relay after 20 minutes) or you can’t kill the hunters after multiple attempts of attacking them at the relay.
Either way, you already lost the match at that point. The game just finally puts an end to it.