Game Balance/Mechanics Feedback


#1

Hey, I’d want to start by saying this is my opinion on what I’ve seen in this game. I will not be discussing the business side of the game but the core elements and mechanics of the game itself. If you’d like to discuss anything said below, please feel free :slight_smile:

For starters, the game has changed
quite a bit, and there will be lots of changes to come in regards to
competitive and casual styles of play. I played in the “Big Alpha”
along with the beta tests (all on P.C). I’ve been following the game
since its initial concept was announced, and have been excited for
its full release.

So now lets remove the fan-boy goggles
and look at the game in its whole.

We’ll start with the maps, for
referencing, North refers to the top section of the map, and South
refers to the bottom of the map. Remember, we haven’t received any
telemetry (win-rate) data, so this is just based on my experience and
those whom I’ve come into contact with while playing the game.

Armoury
Armoury is a map with a choke point in the middle with 2 main feeding grounds on opposite side (NE and SW).
In the NE section of the map, the monster has the escape advantage due to gradual decline in elevation. This results in:

  • Far sight lines for hunters/monsters when looking downhill
  • Less Path Branching.
  • Easy chasing for Hunters due to lack of terrain variance.

The other main sections of the map is the SW and NE corner, there is 2 pillars for breaking sight line and high variance in terrain, this is the ideal combat zone for the monster, regardless of the monsters class. This area also has 2
options for leaving the respected area. If the evolve meter is full, the monster can cross the midsection of the map and create enough distance to safely even with both movement speed buffs and Caira’s accelerate. This leads to one of the major issues with the game, but I’ll get into that later. If you ignore the incline from SW to NE,
you’ll notice a complete lack of traversal options for the monster. Stealth becomes too risky to perform. The wildlife spawns are also in locations that promote map wide corner hugging by the monster, and
will have minimal fights in the middle of the map (excluding player error).

Barracks
Pros:

  • balanced feeding grounds, High Risk High Yield Eating zones for monster.
  • Plenty of terrain/objects for cover
  • Easy to traverse as hunters
  • Great choke points for hunters to keep map control Power Relay is easy to prep for stage 3
  • Flat, which means far sight lines for hunters but also allows for Line of Sight to be broken.

Cons:

  • NW and SE corners are battle zones with minimal benefit.
  • Numerous nooks and crannies to lose the monster. (good for wraith at lower tiers)
  • Way too much acid. Some of the pools need to be switched to water.
  • Ascetically (which ultimately doesn’t matter), this map just bugs me… Who designs a settlement like this…

This map, despite the issues is pretty balanced in regards to higher tier play. In low tier match ups, there will be problems with the acid exposure and the monsters ability to traverse the long distances to access each feeding ground.

Distillery
Pros:

  • Lots of waterways for faster travel, no footprints.
  • Balanced sight-lines
  • Plenty of Audio, and visual indicators of monster’s locations.
  • Easy to traverse terrain
  • Good spread on feeding options excellent tree cover

Cons:

  • No major choke points
  • Hard to stop any monster from getting stage 3 on this map
  • Open and Exposed staging area for power relay (Benefits artillery monsters).
  • Too much aggressive wildlife to hunters

I honestly don’t mind this map as either side, I think the only real change I can recommend is changing some of the aggressive wild fauna into passive but overall its a strong map for pub play and creates a diverse hunting experience.

New Calico:
Pros:

  • Balanced and diverse feeding grounds
  • River in the middle to lose tracks
  • lots of terrain/objects to break sight-lines
  • Diverse feeding grounds

Cons:

  • Almost every spot in this map is good for the monster to fight.
  • Bland
  • too many pathways and minimal
  • choke points
  • Lots of places to evolve safely with close to 0 visibility.

This map needs some reworking for how its to be played in competitive. Its far to tilted in favour of the
monster, and I can tell you, as a monster player. If I see this map, I jump for joy.

These are just some of the maps available and I didn’t include any of the defend maps. That game mode is far to abused in competitive mode by hunters and needs a lot of reworking, but I’ll get into that later. All of the maps have other issues in regards to specifics, however the main problems is the different map layouts. The open area maps, such as New Calico and distillery have to make use of larger sight lines in order to help benefit the hunters. Any new maps will need to make sure that it contains multiple routes and different choke points that can force/contain movement. There are currently too many variables to determine if a map is monster/hunter favoured due to a lack of information publicly available, which will hopefully become available in the future.

Now lets get into the depth of it, the hunters. Before I get into recommending changes to units, we need to define some words that are commonly mistaken/mixed for their meaning.

Broken: A mechanic of the unit does NOT work as INTENDED
Overpowered: A mechanic of the unit performs MORE EFFICIENTLY than intended.
Underpowered: A mechanic of the unit performs LESS EFFICIENTLY than intended.

Medics have been an ongoing issue of balance; they either seem to heal too much or not at all. The most
common medic at level 30-40 will be Caira. Her healing numbers exceed those of Val the Beam Queen and Lazarus the Necromancer, by a large margin. Caira’s healing grenade, which heals in splash; can out heal
the burst from Wraith with level 2 Supernova (level 3 will require a shield from Hank to maintain full sustainability). While she can also heal herself and a small area around the target, she is by far, the
best Medic ( as the class is defined). Caira, due to this I would define as BROKEN her healing burst is excellent, however with low ammo capacity means its only intended for SHORT BURST use, so while
that weapon is reloading, the medic needs to change to dealing damage or using Healing Burst. She is a “Damage Dealer, Healer”, her damage dealing is minimal and can be used to stop feeding with its
minimal damage over time (dot). In order to fix this, she just needs an extra 1.5s added to her reload time for her healing grenade (and adversely her incendiary grenades). This change and increase in
reload time, will encourage players to switch between the two much like other weapons on other hunters.

The Necromancer, Lazarus has his own problems. His issue is the most puzzling due to his diverse mechanics
and play-style. His abilities work as intended, and as efficiently as they should. The problem with our Necromancer is his lack of offensive strength, and how exposed he is during the process of using the Lazarus device. Which leads me to define him as BROKEN. The changes I would make to Lazarus, which would solve his issues at high and low tier play. While invisibility is active, he should be able to use his silenced sniper without losing invisibility, however there should be a small flash animation to reveal the location shot from(since silencers still have a flash). This would allow higher tier monsters to spot the invisible medic, but not blatantly reveal the medic and exposing him to the fanged teeth of the monster. I would also change the way the Lazarus device works, allowing Lazarus to PRE-LOAD his ability and fire it at a corpse at a specific time, but if Lazarus misses (such as getting knocked away by a monster before
finalizing casting) causes the ability to miss, and to go on a half-time cool-down. These 2 changes would allow lower tier the ability to revive more easily and learn some higher mechanics, but would also allow higher tier players to coordinate abilities together to force the monster off the corpse for Lazarus to revive. The better
the Lazarus, the less time he needs.

Finally, that leaves us with Val. Val is underpowered in multiple instances; however her fix can go two directions. She can either be the best Medic (since her heal is single target), or she can gain more offensive strength. She needs to
be put back on the drawing board in my opinion and rescaled to the dev team’s desired goal with her. Her sniper rifle is one of the best buffs to damage if she lands a head-shot (kraken has a massive head FYI) which rewards higher tier players for their accuracy, but body shots will still increase damage allowing lower tier to learn the
mechanic. This is something I wouldn’t like to see changed, however I wouldn’t be opposed to the numbers being changed. Her med-gun creates 0 offensive strength and heals slower then Caira’s splash
grenades and by comparison, cant even out heal a level 1 supernova from wraith. Which leaves with the option of her med-gun having higher heal rate or having it give an alternate buff. Since the med-gun heals only 1 target unit, I would give it an alternate buff, such as a 15% increase in attack speed (drains the ability at the same rate), or a 100% increase in move-speed (but a 50% increase in drain rate of the ability). There are other alternatives as well, but
those are the two that would make val the most viable in different compositions.

Next on the chopping block is Trappers. The trappers are all universally great at what they do, each of which having their own pro’s and cons. The only exception the trappers ability to be outside of a dome without the use of teleporter. Abe’s slows are incredibly useful and infuriating as the monster, however not overpowered/broken. In my opinion, the tracking dart should update more frequently instead of every 1.5s. Maggie has issues with Daisy, she’s sometimes retarded. We’re not talking normal level of retarded. We’re talking Sofa King level of stupidity. This issue
however will be corrected as the AI becomes more intelligent and eventually self-aware. Please TRS, put //DoNotBecomeSkynet in the code.

However on a more serious note, Daisy is missing some logical consistent. She doesn’t have the ability to
bite, like other trap-jaws. She should have the ability to break stealth pounces/disables on other units. Other then that, I have no qualms with trappers, maybe griffin can get a better reload speed; but alas no major concerns.

Support is the next class, Hank the artillery, Bucket the logical fallacy (the irony), and Cabot the Damage Leader. Hank is the only support that is strictly support, his orbital is great for zone control however i think it needs a duration increase by 2s. It removes a good section of the monsters travel path. ALTERNATIVELY it could be given Double/triple damage but be unable to be used while the monster is in the thunder dome due to the Dome stopping all external damage (logical consistency issue, however probably wouldn’t be the best idea). Next on the list is bucket, the mechanical logical fallacy, his infinite heads for UAV drives me batty; that being said, his U.A.V. is far too slow for larger maps. Which means at lower tiers of play, it takes too long to pursue and label the monster; at higher tiers of play, its barely used. With a speed increase on the UAV (15% more than its current) and free flight without high restrictions (unless i just ran into a bug consistently during testing), will make it more viable in higher tier play against stealthy monsters. His turrets are a different issue, only in specific circumstances in regards to Nest, defend and rescue; but
I’ll get into that later.

This leaves Cabot, the best support for hunt due to his ability to assist in locating and being the highest consistent damage towards the monster. His Rail gun deals good damage and has great bonus for accuracy, however i think it needs an extra 0.5s reload to slow down his attack dealing more damage then amplifier in most circumstances. His damage Amp is the main issue when combo’d with any of the assault classes. The Amplification make
Hyde a very happy pyro, due to its ability to turn the monster into chocolate. Without knowing the exact numbers, it looks like 200% added to damage as opposed to a double damage. To explain: 200% added
to 1 is 2 + 1 = 3, Double of 1 is 2, which is equal to 100% added (which is STILL HYUGE). This needs to be scaled back, or the Cloak ability will need an increase in Cool-down in order to increase his vulnerability (however this shouldn’t apply to the other 2 supports).

EDIT::: it looks like i was wrong in this section. Damage amp is 1:1 ratio with damage dealt and will drain only when damage is done. Thanks Jackisath :smile: However, this ratio may need to be scaled back to 0.75 or even 0.5 ratio with current drain rate stabilized.

Assault is the meat of the hunter squad. Markov the Russian mine king, Hyde the Guitar-Shredding metal head (a good guitar solo is “face-melting” for those that missed the joke), and Parnell the Sunglasses at night disco star. Parnell
needs maybe a 5% increase in his damage, and Hyde’s grenade needs to also slow the monster while also damaging the hunters. Its poison gas. Come on.

This leaves the monsters, some of the most BROKEN units in the game. You will notice I said BROKEN, not
overpowered. The universal issues are as follows:

  • Shift shouldn’t be needed to be held. Its an extra button. Alternatively, give us an option in the menu to make movement smooth.
  • Monsters have a consistent issue of maxing 1 ability stage 1 and having it be just as strong at stage 3. Cool downs should be tied to stage level. The higher the stage level, the lower the cool down time. (this means it will require staging and additional balancing.
  • Without Perks, monsters cannot contest hunters until stage 3. This only affects diehard fans and competitive play (since buffs are removed). An increase in base stats would help counteract this, however buffs also negatively impact the balancing due to pub ladder issues.

Even with these universal issues, the monsters have their own issues. The most frustrating of which being
Goliath s inability to use traversal stamina to JUMP BACKWARDS. If you want to see the most pitiful leap in history, hold back as Goliath and jump. Yep. I think of Space-jam whenever it happens (since both Wraith and Krakken CAN do it). Goliath s abilities are smooth and have great feeling of damage and durability. Goliath was clearly the monster with the most time spent on him as he’s the most preferred monster at higher tier play due to his aggressive style. Krakken is the monster with the greatest mid tier threat. His inability to be brought down from flight and difficulty of dodging his abilities makes him a foe to reckon with. Low tier play, the main problem is the lack of ability to lock him down. The best way to correct his low tier issues without hindering his higher tier playability would be a tweak to his flight movement while not hindering his feeding and map traversal. This means that it would be better to Half his flight speed, putting Krakken at a near standstill, but increasing his max ground movement speed by 10%. This would pull Krakkens from static flight except in harsh terrain. Since higher tier players will save his traversal stamina for flight dodging, it affects his high tier minimally while decreasing his
low-tier pub stomp potential.

Lastly this leaves me with Wraith. When i stopped playing wraith in pub games, i was top 10 on ladder (without disco/stat-padding).I want to say that i enjoy wraith as a monster, but ultimately, Wraith might as well be renamed to Captain Cancel-Fun due to her Broken style of play (again notice the use of BROKEN). Wraith’s concept is a monster that initiates pick-offs during stage 1 and 2 in order to gain the advantage for stage 3 with pips (strikes). Wraith was not intended to be a high damage dealing brawler at stage 3. With the initial concept, Wraith needs a rework on the Abduct ability. Abduct should be either
a) instant stealth pounce on the grabbed unit upon return to the point of origin, or
b) wraith should have the unit controlled/disabled in a hold either until wraith uses an attack/ability or a max duration of 5 seconds. Allowing wraith to successfully abduct a hunter and stealth pounce in a safe location (our necromancer friend can help protect the hunters from this). Wraith’s traversal stamina will need to have the distance changed based on when the stamina is spent. If its spent while wraith is currently travelling with stamina points, an extra 50% should be added to the current traversal. With 3 traversals that means that instead of 300% total traversal distance, it will be 225% total. Allowing lower tier wraith players more punishment, making it easier for hunters, while also allowing higher tier players a choice of either investing fully in that distance, or waiting the extra second between traversals to get additional distance.
The next issue with wraith, which is the main issue in low tier/pub games. The invisibility. This could be countered by adding a shimmer to the wraith’s invisibility much like that seen by other games that employ invisibility. These changes will help fix some of the balance issues with wraith, however we will need more information from TRS before tweaking.

Game modes have some small issues, which everyone is aware of. Markov’s and Bukkit in nest are just
insane. Eggs will need more protection from special abilities however increase vulnerability to bullets. Defend is a tilted match-up as is. It should be changed to have 2 new minions spawn every 35s without a Spawn limit. If the hunters don’t focus the minions, they will get overwhelmed but this will also force the monster to protect the minions, allowing them to buildup and kill the defence points.

Sorry for the essay, if you have any feedback, please leave it below and i’ll be happy to respond :slight_smile:
Lastly… please remove the need to click the customize button when in solo play. Allow Bots to be changed to whatever units are available for that class. In ladder Skirmish, make it random…


TLDR: I have too much time on my hands.

Edited for formatting.


Your first post (Forum time with Max)
#2

Reserved. …


#3

Great comments, very well informed


#4

Hope you don’t mind, but I’d like to throw in some feedback/suggestions, but I have no wish to create yet another thread over it. This one seems general enough, so I hope you don’t mind.

Trappers-

Overview: The Trapper class as a whole really feels underwhelming to me. After putting down the dome, what is there to really do? For me, it ends up being “run away from the monster” or “spam whatever isn’t your primary weapon.” The reason for this is that all of the Trapper primary weapons are garbage-tier damage, you’re a relatively high value target to get the dome down early, and you have low health.

It is this mindset that gave me the following results.

Maggie:
-Improve primary weapon damage.
-Get Daisy tor behave more like an actual Trapjaw, perhaps offensive/defensive being a toggle chosen by Maggie.
-Only one active harpoon trap is broken per melee attack made by the monster. Skills can still break multiple traps.
-Harpoon traps no longer stop movement-related skills (but they still halt traversal stamina-based effects). If a monster moves outside the maximum range of activation, the trap breaks.

Griffin:
-Increase radius of detection for Sound Spikes from 50 to 60.
-Monsters within 1/2 (30) of the spikes’ radius are detected even if moving stealthily.
-The Harpoon Gun increases all damage the monster takes while tethered by some multiplier. This was removed in the Alpha if I remember correctly, but Griffin could still really use something for both making himself a target and not being able to do anything else while holding the monster. Something minor like 1.25-1.5 would be dandy.

Abe:
-The Tracking Dart Pistol gains a soft-lock feature for non-monster creatures that are not currently tracked.
-Throwing Stasis Grenades should not forcibly slow Abe for the entire “reload.” While this can be averted by swapping immediately after throwing, a quality-of-life improvement would be to remove the slow-down in the first place.
-Reduce the duration of Tracking Darts.
-Reduce the severity of Stasis Grenades in some way.
-Increase the value of using the primary weapon.

Medics-

Overall: I think Lazarus is in a good enough place, and Caira already has balancing in the works. I believe that only leaves Val. She is currently extremely underwhelming compared to the other two, between very limited ammunition, lacking response to being focused, and fairly slow healing.

Val:
-Remove the sniper rifle, replace it with the tranq gun.
-The Tranq gun now deals damage if used on a target already tranquilized, along with refreshing the duration.
-Targets tranquilized deal slightly less damage.
-New 3rd skill: Val calls down a med bay (as the map effect) on a long cooldown that must be outdoors. This bay fully heals one hunter that passes through it and removes one strike if they have one. The bay has a 30 second cooldown between uses and lasts 45 seconds before breaking. The monster can break it earlier by attacking it.

Assault-

Overview: Again, they’re in a pretty good spot. I believe Markov and Parnell are in the best spots at this time, while Hyde is still missing his hook beyond being thematically the best. This is why I propose a limited corpse denial mechanism for Hyde.

Markov:
-Mines that are detonated before arming deal 20% of their damage in the same radius.

Hyde:
-Creatures killed by the flamethrower or while burning have half of their normal food value for the monster, rounded down (1 -> 0, 2-3 -> 1, 4 -> 2). If this means the corpse would be at 0, then it is reduced to ashes instead.
-Toxic Grenades increase the Flamethrower’s range and damage.

Parnell:
-Damage per rocket up, base clip down to 4.

That’s all for now.


#5

I don’t think Caira is broken tbh. I think her skills and healing are what they should be at. I think a lot of her being “OP” comes from a broken mechanic that has nothing to do the character/role itself, which is the ability to to hop up and down ledges to avoid most, if not all, attacks. This lets her evade a good 80% of incoming damage, and then just heal up what is lost. However, in a straight up fight her heals out heal damage from stage 1 attacks no question, are about on with stage 2 attacks (the first to make the wrong move loses), and cannot outheal stage 3 attacks or stage 3 attacks+combos when it comes to the weaker attacks. Which is how it should be. Even with downed players, I cannot revive them if the monster is continuously beating on them. Her heals just aren’t powerful enough/fast enough to outheal the damage. Remove the ledge mechanic she she will be exactly where all the healers need to be.

Val needs to be boosted to her level. Healing the same rate as caira, but replacing AE healing with single target healing that doesn’t need to reload. I also agree her dps skills need to be tweaked, since atm she suffers from Jack-of-all-trades syndrome. I think one thing that would help a lot is to give her sniper rifle a 3 round mag. Make it fire slower than Lazarus for sure, but faster than it is now. Tbh though, I really don’t think they should have given both of them that sniper rifle mechanic. Fixing Val encroaches on Lazarus’s territory. So either you have two chars basically with the same exact dps weapon, or you leave her screwed.

I think Lazarus is fine where he’s at though. He does what he’s supposed to do, and does it well. He just has a steeper learning curve, so newer players will make awful Laz players. I think his healing burst could be tweaked to be a little better, but otherwise I wouldn’t change him.

I don’t really know the other classes well enough to comment, so I’ll just leave it at that.


#6

@SaintYin

The Trapper class as a whole really feels underwhelming to me. After putting down the dome, what is there to really do? For me, it ends up being "run away from the monster" or "spam whatever isn't your primary weapon."

Trappers have a very defensive style of play when in the dome (excluding Maggie). They’re based around position and providing your teammates the advantage they need to dodge and protect themselves. Griffin for example is a trapper that has to position himself opposite to the medic/support in order to protect them from charges and traversals, Meanwhile Maggie is used for position control in the dome. If you’re having problems controlling the monster in the dome, try Maggie, and put your harpoons about 10 units in from the perimeter of the dome. Guarding exits and hiding points. You’ll notice the monster is instantly exposed. In regards to DPS, It seems identical to the support and the medics primary gun damage.

However, I LOVE the idea of giving Daisy a stance/behavior toggle. That would make it really alter the flow of the fight. you can switch her to attack, where she’ll attack any wildlife/monster around. or you can set her to passive to track/follow the monster.

As much as i like the change to Griffin’s harpoon, you’ll notice that its not introducing a unique mechanic, and adding more multipliers just makes the damage output insane when combined with Cabot and Val. You’ll be able to melt through anything with a high tier lineup.

-Remove the sniper rifle, replace it with the tranq gun. -The Tranq gun now deals damage if used on a target already tranquilized, along with refreshing the duration. -Targets tranquilized deal slightly less damage.

I actually thought of this and discussed it with a large portion of people before omitting it from a change that would benefit the game. The problem that will arise is an increase in reliance on the primary weapon and lack of use of the secondary abilities (which provide the full purpose of the role). This change would also make the medic unable to break pounces and fauna disables.

-New 3rd skill: Val calls down a med bay (as the map effect) on a long cooldown that must be outdoors. This bay fully heals one hunter that passes through it and removes one strike if they have one. The bay has a 30 second cooldown between uses and lasts 45 seconds before breaking. The monster can break it earlier by attacking it.
Interesting way to change Val's mechanics. Instead of the ability to revive without creating pip's/strikes, instead she'll be able to remove strikes on units that were revived.

@Eudyptes
the flight mechanic is a weird tweak to the game that makes it more difficult for the monster to attack hunters however its a battle of skill between the monster and the hunter.

Thanks Dignity :smile:


#7

A good read and would like to comment more in future but I disagree with the severity of some of your suggestions. A 1.5 second increase in Caira’s reload is enormous. That might not sound like a lot on paper but adding even a second to a reload animation is massive. That is far, far too much of a nerf. I do however like your suggestions for laz. Invis silenced sniper could be interesting and the potential for more skill based use of resurrection.

Will comment more in future but have to say I appreciate your formatting and well thought out discussion.


#8
A 1.5 second increase in Caira's reload is enormous.
Ferno, thanks for the response, After thinking about it, i think an extra shot in the healing grenade (from 4 shots to 5) and an increase in reload by 0.5s, would be an option.

HOWEVER i have since come up with a better means (in my opinion) of changing Caira.
Change grenade total to 6,
Switch the gun to a toggle between incendiary and healing grenade.
Use a Shotgun Shell style reload, where Caira has to put the shots into the gun, each being 0.5s per shell.
Make the ammo Shared between the 2 modes.

I’ve also done some some thought of val, in regards to the previous idea of the medbays.
The ability for a teammate to remove a pip/strike without tying up the originating unit would be a problem in its own. A possible fix would be to have Val use the “medpack” style of repair from L4d. It would also serve as a throwback to their previous game and allow the medic to remove pip’s/strikes when Out of combat if the monster is not engaging for too long a period.


#9

I agree with some things here and disagree with others.

On the subject of Lazarus: I think one thing people often miss about Laz play is that sometimes it is better to let a teammate get a single strike in order to favor the damage you’ll get on the monster. So, his revive does not need to be easier, in my opinion, because its already very tough as the monster to fight a good lazarus. The monster needs the ability to force-cancel Laz’s revive, which your suggestion would remove. The monster needs to be able to bait laz to a corpse and then hurt him, if you could preload a revive, the risk for Laz would be almost nothing.

I like your suggestion for Hyde’s poison grenades, unfortunately with Abe in the game I’m not sure we need another AOE monster slow. Playing Kraken against Abe is hard enough.

I am surprised you didn’t mention Kraken’s escape problems against Abe… by far one of the hardest matches to win. You can’t move quick enough to clear distance, and the fact that you’re in the air means easier darts for Abe. Plus, his grenades really take away almost all of your mobility. Paired with Val’s tranqs, the problem is much, much worse. Kraken is by far the slowest monster and nerfing flight speed would be a terrible idea. If anything, both his flight speed and his traversal need a significant buff since he simply can’t get away from Caira+Abe or Caira+Maggie even with the stamina perk. Its also not too hard to dodge damage from Kraken, since mines are shootable, lightning is slow to correct the aim, and Vortex (impossible to dodge) doesn’t do that much damage.

I definitely agree that Caira needs a nerf, having played against a skilled hunter team, for 12 matches, I got maybe 4 downs the entire time, playing Kracken and Goliath. I was taking a shotgun build on the advice of Macman & Gentleman Squirrel (lvl 1 3pts into 1 ability), which should definitely not have a longer cooldown because its easy enough to dodge damage as the hunters anyway. I realize you should be at a disadvantage as the monster at stage 1, BUT you DEFINITELY do not need to nerf stage one by penalizing with more cooldowns. If they spent 3 points in Rock Throw, and are able to whittle you down and hit you, they flippin deserve to get you down… its so hard to survive in a fight at stage one with a single ability. I disagree with you SO MUCH on this point.

Val I would say has to be paired with Hank right now, I haven’t been on a team that can successfully run Val + Cabot as well as we can run Caira with any support.

For me, Armoury is the best hunter map and Orbital Drill is the best monster map. New Calico is a defend map by the way… you must be thinking of something else. Perhaps Refueling Tower?

I’d say the most balanced maps are Distillery, Weather Control, and Rendering Plant.

It would be cool if you could hit “3” to tell daisy to run away or something like that. Maybe adding some interaction there would be a way to give daisy a tiny oomph. She’s really good though with Caira Cabot.


#10

[quote=“PlasticMan, post:9, topic:38159”]
Abe in the game I’m not sure we need another AOE monster slow. Playing Kraken against Abe is hard enough.
I am surprised you didn’t mention Kraken’s escape problems against Abe… by far one of the hardest matches to win. [/quote]

Thanks for the response Plastic.
Abe is one of the trappers that requires monsters to change tactics. His stasis grenades are highly punishing to monsters who spam traversal stamina instead of saving 1-2 charges. Similar to hunters and their jet-pack fuel (save 1 dash worth for dodging).
I disagree on Krakken being slow, if you include his passive flight speeds ability to bypass terrain obstacles. He might actually be able to traverse across the map at the fastest rate. However, I think you missed the increase to his ground Movement as-well, which would make him the Fastest ground-walking monster in the game with the ability to hover bypass terrain if he has stamina, otherwise the hunters will easily be able to keep up with him.

However i’d like to backtrack a bit to this:

So, his revive does not need to be easier, in my opinion, because its already very tough as the monster to fight a good lazarus. The monster needs the ability to force-cancel Laz's revive, which your suggestion would remove. The monster needs to be able to bait laz to a corpse and then hurt him, if you could preload a revive, the risk for Laz would be almost nothing.

Krakken has the Easiest time protecting a corpse from a distance. The easiest solution to this while keeping with the previous changes, would be to make Lazerus Device interruptible (which it currently is). With Pre-loading on Lazerus, there is still a timing window that must be hit. While Lazerus uses the Lazerus device, he is uncloaked and exposed. So there are no real changes to Lazerus’ susceptibility to Krakken other then the decrease in the amount of time spent specifically over the corpse, forcing the monster to watch for him in any direction (which they should be anyway).

I realize you should be at a disadvantage as the monster at stage 1, BUT you DEFINITELY do not need to nerf stage one by penalizing with more cooldowns.... ... its so hard to survive in a fight at stage one with a single ability. I disagree with you SO MUCH on this point....

In regards to this, i re-read what i wrote above

The higher the stage level, the lower the cool down time.

What i mean by that is that keep stage 1 cd’s as they are currently, and as the monster progresses to stage 3, their cooldowns go down, similiar to the Cooldown buff that can be found on the map.
For instance, Stage 1 monster has 100% Cooldown duration, Stage 2 monster has 85% cooldown duration. Stage 3 monster has 70% cooldown duration.
This change would be a buff towards the monsters. and will the increase in skill usage, you’ll notice a higher importance in skillshots and an increase in spectacle fighting for hightier play. Sorry for the confusion. These numbers would have to be tweaked most likely for better balancing after testing and may be changed to more like 100-90-80.

But in regards to map specifics… i’m waiting on stats release from Turtlerock before i get too indepth about the map balance, I’ll probably be making another post after those are done… But i agree,

For me, Armoury is the best hunter map
I'm in total agreement, monsters can to the end of the map, but then its a forced engagement once the hunters catch up (max 3/4 armour for kraken, and 1/2 armour for goliath, if you're lucky).

Thanks again for the response. :slight_smile: look forward to reading your response to this :slight_smile:


#11

I just hope they buff Lazarus / Val and don’t nerf Caira too hard, if at all. She’s in a good place, she can only heal and can’t do that much damage compared to Val / Laz. Her healing isn’t overpowered as monsters can still easily burst someone down if they focus 1 person. If they nerf her so that her healing is in line with Val then Caira will pretty much be useless, as that’s all she can really do.

EDIT - IMO, Laz and Val make Caira seem better than she is because they aren’t as good as her. If you don’t compare her to the other medics she does her job well (healing) but not well enough to outheal decent monsters at stage 2 or monsters at stage 3. She shouldn’t be punished (nerfed) because Val and Laz are in a bad place right now.


#12

She can out-heal level 2 Goliath, level 2 wraith, level 2 krakken.
and that’s all level 2 abilities.
Another thing to consider, its splash healing.


#13

Level 3 Rock + any other ability as Goliath destroys hunters.
Level 3 Supernova + Decoy destroys hunters
Level 3 Aftershock + Vortex destroys hunters

All easily done at stage 2.

The fact that it is harder to heal on Caira due to having to guess where in advance someone will end up makes it much harder to heal with her than it does with Val. Healing people who get knocked backed by abilities or even hunters jumping high into the air away from objects makes Caira’s job 10x harder.


#14

Goliath:
level 3 rock throw does 55% damage, with a direct hit. 25% with a close proximity splash.
Level 2 rock throw does 45% damage with a direct hit. 10% with a close proximity splash.

Both share a cooldown of 8s.

Caira
Caira has a minimum firing cycle of 8 seconds. Thats 4 healing grenades and a reload.
Each Grenade heals for 15% with a direct hit, and 5% with a close proximity.
With Direct hits, you’re looking at 60% heal over 8 seconds.

Caira’s heal = 60%
Goliaths Damage = 55%


#15

Level 2 Charge / Leap Smash followed by level 3 Rock throw can be done in about 2-3 seconds. Follow with auto attacks / other ability and that person is dead. Most people focus Hank / Medic first in a fight. It really isn’t all that hard to kill Caira at stage 2, or knock her away with an ability and use the rest on someone else if necessary.

Sure, against bad monsters Caira can heal, but if monsters know how to focus someone it is really difficult for Caira to heal.

EDIT - You’re assuming that the monster is going to wait around after rock throw is done so that Caira can heal. Burst damage with 2 abilities wrecks Caira / Hank.


#16

Can we please get the option as Val and Hank to press LT to switch heal/shield targets? Too many times have I targeted someone I DIDN’T want (looking at you Daisy!)