Fine tuning of low damage weapons (pistols and napalm)


#1

Caira’s Pistol currently does 22% more damage in the same time than her Grenade Launcher!

Now that I have your attention, here a some things in the game that I see as problemetic

  • Pistols rarely ever make a difference and vary in their accuracy too much
  • Caira’s damage is very low and does not make the team do more
  • Body camping is too effective still and unfun for the downed player

First off, let’s look at the dps values that I calculated for the Medics. This is the full clip damage divided by the minimum fire duration and the reload time. Poison and Fire dps was also added and Emet was assumed to fire 4 tracking shots and 4 missiles.

Medic Pistol: 60
Val:          82 (not including weakpoints)
Rogue Val:   133
Lazarus:      95 (not including weakpoints)
Caira:        49
Slim:        122
Emet:        114
Emet Pistol:  35

So clearly, Caira is way off the chart, she is even below her own pistol.
Speaking of Pistols, here are the values for the other ones:

Assault: 39
Support: 43
Trapper: 33
Jack:    60

If you take an even closer look at the data, you realise that Jack’s downed pistol is a little weaker than he would be if just using 1 Pistol. It is also worth mentioning that the different pistols have different accuracies, though in my opinion:

All pistols should have a similar accuracy

Furthermore, I think they should be a tool to punish body camping a little bit more. Especially Lazarus would benefit immensly from this because with him you are more likely to go down in the first place. He is also depending on a damage to chase a Monster away from a body, which is difficult with only 2 other Hunters, who might not even use his weakpoints. Pistols can shoot his weakpoints though, so the 50% higher damage should be worth something.
For the following numbers I tried to balance it around Jack and Emet, as if they were just using 1 Pistol of their default kit.

Jack
From: 200 RPM, 1.7s reload, 35 dmg, 6 shots = 60 dps
To: 200 RPM, 1.5s reload, 36 dmg, 6 shots = 65 dps
(1 Pistol = Half the fire rate)
Emet
From: 120 RPM, 1.6s reload, 22 dmg, 12 shots = 35 dps
To: 120 RPM, 2.0s reload, 49 dmg, 8 shots = 65 dps
(Just the finger pistol, no missiles. This includes the upcoming patch that weakens his tracker damage)
Medic
From: 900 RPM, 1.8s reload, 16 dmg, 27 shots, 0.4s delay between 3 shot bursts = 60 dps
To: 900 RPM, 1.9s reload 20 dmg, 18 shots, 0.4s delay between 3 shot bursts = 65 dps
Trapper
From: 350 RPM, 1.7s reload, 15 dmg, 6 shots = 33 dps
To: 350 RPM, 1.7s reload, 30 dmg, 6 shots = 66 dps
Assault
From: 350 RPM, 1.6s reload, 12 dmg, 12 shots = 39 dps
To: 350 RPM, 1.6s reload, 20 dmg, 12 shots = 66 dps
Support
From: 350 RPM, 1.6s reload, 13 dmg, 12 shots = 43 dps
To: 350 RPM, 1.6s reload, 20 dmg, 12 shots = 66 dps

Not to forget Caira’s Napalm:
From: 75 RPM, 3.0s reload, 45 dmg, 4 shots, 20 dps burn = 49 dps
To: 75 RPM, 3.0s reload, 75 dmg, 4 shots, 50dps burn = 98 dps

This would be more than Laz and Val do when nobody shoots their weakpoints, but still less than the other medics. It would also allow Caira to kill a 3 point Spidertrap within 3.2 seconds. (Val currently needs 3.15 seconds, Laz needs 3.75).

With this buff, a downed hunter could also help killing a spidertrap in the following times:
Jack: 3.6s / 4.2s/ 5.1s
Emet: 3.0s/ 3.5s/ 6.5s
Medic: 2.5s/ 3.1s/ 5.6s
Trapper: 3.2s/ 3.6s/ 5.8s
Assault/ Support: 3.8s / 4.3s/ 5.0s

Whereas right now, the chances of killing it before it dies on its own are pretty low.


#2

Given that this has been a longstanding complaint (the fact that actually you can be simply doing nothing for 3 minutes of the game if being the first focused and killed), I wonder if … hope that… it’s one of the areas that is actively on the dev’s radar.

I’m always enjoying pistol shots to the head of a monster :smiley:

I like the simple change suggestion to Caira’s napalm DoT too.


#3

I made some changes to the incap pistols to make them a lot stronger than they currently are on live. (Spread down a lot and damage almost doubled) We definitely don’t like body camping and there are more changes to discourage body camping going in but now is not the time to tease those. :slightly_smiling:


So you guys have been talking the next Micropatch lately
Title Update 9 : Everything we know - Expected Summer 2016
#4

Why do you tease the tease!!!


#5

@The_Mastermind this is the thread for you.


#6

It’s great to see a complaint with an actual valid suggestion for fixing it with potential values.

I’ve started to play Medic a lot so…
I try not to think about how much damage my team will do with the down pistol :joy:


#7

It is making me somewhat paranoid that more and more you guys have the same ideas that I have before I actually have them. Now tell me, what will be my next idea how to improve the game? And why are you developing a game when you can see into the future?


#8

Perhaps something about the dropship?


#9

Don’t ask how it works; it’s the future!


#10

My complaint about body camping is the Incap Health isn’t high enough, in L4D the amount of health a downed player had was too much (at least in VS mode), in Evolve it’s the complete opposite and it doesn’t take much to kill someone once they become incapped.

Not sure if I’m the only one that feels this way.


#11

Well, it’s plenty of time to revive them if they aren’t getting attacked. It also provides enough time to punish any Monster who camps them and still get them up. It may be tough, but the timer can also be extended by healing the downed Hunter, if you can’t quite get them up quick enough. You can also revive them this way without sticking yourself in one place and being as vulnerable.

You’re not the only one who feels like that, but a lot of people find it easy enough to give the Monster hell in that time. Feels pretty good to me, though. Too much more time and it would be a huge advantage to the Hunters.


#12

Caira’s napalm grenades have always been way too weak. It’s unfortunate because it makes her toolset really limited and not very fun to use. I’d love to see a change of some sort to those. :smiley_cat:


#13

So when somebody is dead they can fly around the map with Bucket and the dropship and shoot lasers at the monster? :smiley: jk

Nice that you’re doing something against the body camping. I haven’t even thought of that but now when you say it, it is stupid and frustrating for the downed player.
Increasing the pistol damage is definitively a step in the right direction!


#14

Will this change make it into the upcoming title update. I hope it will, this sounds like it would help a lot against body camping.


#15

Caira has always been my favourite hunter. I Hope they can make the napalm have some more impact.


#16

I was thinking more along the lines of tagging the monster from the ship or like surveillance cameras… loving being able to do this in Rainbox Six.


#17

Why reduce spread since body camping monsters are always on you or very close to you ?


#18

Body camping is when a monster stays near the bodies doing damage to the team preventing them to get picked up at the same time, if the monster is standing directly on top of a body it usually means its trying to kill them instead of camping the body.

So the smaller spread will help the hunters are getting camped do more damage.


#19

At least Kraken does not need to be close to you to camp your body. Also a higher accuracy is beneficial to land headshots and kill things like banshee mines or spider traps more reliably.


#20

It will not be in the next title update. [quote=“Xtrem, post:17, topic:80735, full:true”]
Why reduce spread since body camping monsters are always on you or very close to you ?
[/quote]
The goal for the change is more than just body camping, we want downed players to still be a threat to the monster. Right now, many players question if they should even bother firing the pistol.


The Tumbling