Does the power relay actually put a stage 3 monster at a disadvantage?


#1

I made a thread about this yesterday, but it got way too long and convoluted so no one read it, also it was mixed in with some other issue I had, so I’ll try to keep this one much shorter. (TRY to, it’ll probably be just as long.)

THIS IS ALL FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A GOLIATH PLAYER, CANNOT SPEAK FOR OTHER MONSTERS

Stage 3 is supposed to be the apex of a monster’s power. A team of hunters is supposed to want to kill a monster before stage 3 at all costs – but lately I’ve learned that stage 2 is when I’m at my deadliest. Why? The power relay.

The power relay allows hunters to turtle up, and when they do that and, since most maps with relays tend to favor hunters over goliath at the actual relay, it becomes a really bad idea to stage up to 3 as a goliath player.

A monster’s greatest benefit is his battlefield, and stage 3 battles take that power away from you, they essentially neuter your strength when fighting a good team.

I believe this kills the “monster gets stronger over time” dynamic of the game. As the monster, I should never be avoiding staging up, but it’s all I do, I only hit stage 3 if I don’t have the HP to survive stage 2, and even then I’ll usually risk it and hope my armor holds out.

My personal suggestion would be to change the final goal for the Monster; something like me getting some energy and trying to “evolve” again, but this evolution is some mcguffin, like “Oh no, if he pulls this off, he’ll spawn eggs or… call in other monsters or something.” It doesn’t matter what the specific reason is, but the goal would be to allow the monster to choose the battlefield. Anytime you press the evolve button from this point on, you’re highlighted in-game and on the map, so you can’t do it in secret, it’d take significantly longer than killing a power relay due to the advantage the monster would have by being able to flee, but the “hunters win after x time” stipulation would stay.

I believe this would make stage 3 more exciting and properly strengthen stage 3 monsters in high level play for multiple reasons.

  1. No turtling up for hunters. This keeps the trapper just as useful throughout the whole game, instead of making them a gimped damage dealer. As it stands now, trappers are only situationally useful in stage 3 if the monster tries to flee.

  2. The battlefield remains dynamic the entire game. Stage 3 games, unless the monster does something very wrong, end at the power relay, almost every time. That’s boring.

  3. The monster actually becomes more powerful, rather than having to sit there and think about what they’re sacrificing to hit stage 3; their freedom to choose a battlefield on their terms.

  4. It gives the hunters more incentive to actually end the game at stage 2. Of course, most hunters want the game to end there as is, but a highly skilled team doesn’t fear stage 3 at all. They know they’ll have the advantage on almost every map, and goliath in particular struggles with some of the weirder geometry in these areas, considerably so with a Sunny placing shield bots in awkward spots that have great line of sight to the entire battlefield.

Just a suggestion on one of many ideas that I think could work. A team of hunters should ABSOLUTELY be able to beat a stage 3 monster, it should never be impossible or hopeless (unless he has full HP and armor and they have 2 strikes each) but as it stands, I feel stage 3 goliath is worse than stage 2 goliath against a really good team, and that’s no bueno.


#2

Well from a Monster Player’s view I can tell you that Stage 2 is the Apex of power and often going to fight a good team at the Relay is going to be a fight you often cannot win due to how the Relays are often designed; it really differs and depends on the map. But mostly I try to end most games at Stage 2 and rarely push to Stage 3. I’ve had hunters give up on fighting me at Stage 2 and just went to guard the relay because they knew they couldn’t beat me otherwise, and this is as of 2.0.


#3

I understand where you’re coming from, but I also see the wisdom in the currenr mechanics.

The monster is supposed to evade the Hunters while he stages up. If he’s doing well, the Hunters never find him unless he wants them to find him. That’s why the time limit and power relay are important. It essentially puts the time limit on the monster to finish the game. It would suck to be a Hunter if the monster could win by simply evading you the whole match and running out the clock.


#4

I feel it depends on map, and what the hunters team comp is.


#5

I agree, which is why I never suggested the monster could win by running out the clock?

I said the monster could win by “evolving” a third time (not actually evolving, just using the evolve button to fill a bar that wins the match, but is a VERY slow bar and highlights you on the map, so no more evading, easily interrupted) and that a sneaky monster could still lose by running down the clock.

In other words, the monster itself becomes the “power relay” but with a longer activation time.


#6

Ah, I misunderstood.

Still, I think it has the same general problem of encouraging the Monster to flee and never fight. If the fight is being forced because the monster is “evolving” again… Well, maybe it could work?


#7

That’s the idea. To get any significant progress, the monster would have to be stationary for a while, and he’d be super easy to spot. In fact, I doubt most monsters would even try to win this way, as most don’t try to win using the power relay. It’d just be an excuse to keep the battlefield moving.


#8

Well the monster is stage 3 then, so hunters should be extremely easy targets. Sometimes a monster at stage 3 only has a fraction of health left so that really makes it hard to wanna charge into an area you know is loaded with hunters, but then maybe the monster should have played the game better in the early game and not lost as much health.

I think the game progresses nicely as it is. As monster your early goal is to evade hunters and evolve to become more powerful. The hunters are trying to catch and kill you. During the mid game the monster has evolved and is now strong enough without buffs to hold his own against the hunters. So now you can choose to engage, or choose to continue evading. The onus though is still on the hunters to catch and kill you.

So at stage 3 I think it only makes sense to force the monster into conflict to resolve the game. The hunters have tried and failed to kill you before you hit stage 3. Adding a whole new element where they have to continue looking for you would just prolong the game even more, and lead to way more monster wins. So this team of hunters was unable to find you and kill you before you hit stage 3. So why would they fare any better on some set spot of the monsters choosing on every map going up against a stage 3 (probably fully armored) monster?

Forcing him into combat just gives them a fighting chance. But by relay time, you should already have strikes on some of them and it should not be difficult. If you haven’t accumulated any strikes on them yet then there’s only yourself to blame.


#9

I supposed it does allow the monster to pick the battlefield that’s most favorable for him. However, you’d have to reset the Evolution progress if cancelled, I think. Otherwise, monsters have a strong incentive to evolve, stop, run to the other side of the map, evolve some more, etc.


#10

Stage 1 Goliath is weakest, but has the advantage of picking where to fight. Very rare to get domed without having a clue where the trapper was, so when you notice them closing in on you, go to a good spot.
Stage 2. Much stronger, and still has the advantage of picking the battleground.
Stage 3 is stronger still. If the hunters had to keep hunting you, they would die so quickly it wouldn’t be fun for anyone.

People prefer to have a monster who will fight at stage 2, than one who would just run all the time. And as a monster, if you want an easy stage 3 win, you want to have down penalties on support and medic, so you can take the team out quickly.


#11

It depends on how well you fared in reaching Stage 3. If you fought Hunters early on, Stage 3 can be a double edge. If you never got caught, Stage 3 with full Armor can be a curbstomp. The Hunters are forced into a small area, usually. This allows you to hit them with area damage and screw them up.


#12

I feel like for you to say this, you maybe haven’t faced some higher end hunter teams. Many, if not most, of the relays are set up in such a way that goliath in particular has mobility issues. Already being a huge, hulking target, he’s absorbing enormous amounts of punishment in an area he didn’t choose to fight in, and the hunters can often use the relay area as the ideal battlefield. In fact, I’d argue there’s no better place to fight a monster, which COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the power dynamic.

Here’s how the developers want the game to progress:

http://i.minus.com/iyGlYHAkWOcCO.jpg

Basically, the longer the hunters take, the lower their chances. Pure and simple. You want to end the game early as a hunter, and as a monster you want to hit stage 3.

But here’s how it actually goes against a non-pub, quality team:

http://i.minus.com/ibkevMFN8zGCsf.jpg

You lose your most powerful toolset as a stage 3. Unless you’ve staged up to 3 without taking any HP damage (which means you’re not fighting a good team and aren’t engaging, therefore no strikes, which are super important when the hunters are turtling up) then your chances of victory plummet dramatically upon hitting stage 3.


#13

Happens to me too. I avoid staging up unless I have to because it throws the game back to hunter favor but hunters all to often abuse that fact. Seems weird in a game about killing the monster before it grows is ultimately the opposite. The monster wants the hunters to try and kill it stage two to avoid the game going to three. Luckily most teams will still chase me to their deaths stage two. The ones that won’t can be problematic.


#14

Seems like a Goliath issue more than anything, and of course Behemoth lol.


#15

Dear god behemoth and wraith more then goliath. I hate stage three wraith if the hunters arn’t striked to hell and back. Behemoth is just trash stage three unless he doesn’t have much choice in the matter. It’s amaizing just how much the game dynamics change for both those chars.


#16

At stage 3 you are powerful enough that a supposed disadvantage in the layout of the battlefield should be null and void. And of course I have went up against good hunters. If you’re telling me that in 50 or so hours as Goliath that I have never been matched up with a good hunter team then my reply is that your conundrum is extremely rare and not worth the developers time. I know I would not want them to alter the game so mightily for something apparently very rare.

The hunters get to set up shop at the relay for a reason. The monster is insane powerful at that point in the game.


#17

Its funny as I share a lot of sentiments in this thread: I hate, hate going stage 3 if I can avoid it. The current state of hunters, especially tier 4, is that they can out-turtle a stage 3 monster easily. I do my best to finish games at stage 2 unless I’m at a serious disadvantage - low hp, struggling with a hunter combination, who has what buffs, etc… I hate the “Hit stage 3? Camp the relay.”

The whole reason hunters get to camp the relay is that the game timer forces an end to the game. It doesn’t matter if you hit stage 3 as all the hunters have to do is camp the relay and wait for you to come. At stage 3 you lose control of the battlefield and give it to the hunters, which is incredibly backwards. The timer is important as it prevents stale, boring games but there has to be some other solution rather giving hunters the most powerful weapon in the game: the clock.


#18

Kinda like how Goku has powerfull form of SSJ 3 but he fought Buu at SSJ to keep his speed and durability.
Since at stage 3 they can wait at relay but at stage 2 the hunt is still on. and the monster has the advantage of the battlefield. you can jump in and out of the fight.


#19

What is wrong with the relay fight.

The monster knows the battlefield as well as the hunters, they know how the hunters will seek to defend it, and how to dismantle said defenses. Ultimately even the most hunter favoring arena is still one the monster knows to expect, and can play around.

There is counter-play in every place, and it only goes against the monster if they fail to use it.

Aviary is a nightmare for behemoth to close out at 3. But I’ve still managed to do it with careful preparation, and using my advantages to nullify the battlefield.


#20

No, you are not. Maybe as Kraken, since Kraken is basically an invincible god even at stage 1… but not Goliath. Goliath’s very design means he has trouble with turtle situations where the hunters can use terrain to their advantage.

This “insane power” you speak of is being a much bigger target, and having your abilities and melee leveled up. Being a bigger target, you’re much easier to hit, having your abilities leveled up is great, but not when you’re in an arena where hunters can easily pillar hump and set up shop.

I don’t know what monster you’re playing where you’ve never seen this issue, but it sure ain’t Goliath. Goliath is ultra-boned on certain maps at stage 3 if the enemy team is competent and understands how to use the terrain.