Does Lazarus need a change?


#1

The list of things that now provide vision of cloaked Lazarus for an extended period:

Goliath: Fire Breath
Meteor Goliath: All abilities
Kraken: Aftershock
Elder Kraken: Aftershock + Vortex
Behemoth: Lava Bomb
Gorgon: Web Snare + Acid Spit
All Supports: Shield Burst
Hank: Shield Gun
Tech Hank: Shield Charger
Sunny: Shield Drone + Jetpack Booster

With the removal of Supports Team Cloak, Lazarus is now the only hunter (character with the rework of decoy) with the ability to cloak, and there is an absolute plethora of abilities that reveal him through it, as well as the influx of new hunter players who don’t know not to cast abilities on him during cloak (And from my experience, a lot of them don’t use voice comms and don’t respond to my pleas.)

I’m wondering if it is time to consider reworking how cloak works, such as damage or DOTs not revealing (monsters still have jetpack trails and footprints to track.) Especially now that Lazarus spends a lot less time cloaked, and any hunter assistance reveals him.

What are the communities thoughts on this?


Lazarus weakest medic?
#2

I believe the devs have said somewhere that they might change up lazarus’ cloak as well. But don’t quote me on that


#3

I would love that cloak would cancel out the visuals of shielding because its your own team screwing you not knowing. However monster abilities should show him


#4

Yeah, tried Lazarus out in Stage 2. Had not played him since they made the change he could not resurrect dead bodies. He used to be my main medic. Got wrecked. He definitely needs some change.

Edit: Yeah, since they made the change where reviving dead bodies gives them strikes. Kinda defeats his whole purpose IMO, but whatevs.


#5

Im pretty sure he can resurrect, it’s just now they have a strike instead of full health.


#6

The dead have a strike isn’t as bad now that strikes are reduced, assuming you make the monster pay hard enough for taking the time to kill them, and with the new respawn system, I actually find myself often telling the first person downed to just take the 10 second respawn if the monster is sitting on them hard enough.


#7

It’s still pretty odd tho.
Why would the player be punished for doing his job.
Why would Lazarus be punished for letting his allies die, when his job is to have them die to bring them back again.

Lazarus right now is better than ever (against good monsters) because the new perk system, dome system and passive regen buffs him indirectly, so I’m not complaining.
But it’s an weird decision I think.
It’s like giving the hunter Val is healing a strike if they are healed too much, reducing Bucket’s turret damage the more turrets he have out or having a percentage of the damage you do as an assault dealt back to you.
Very odd, but not game breaking I guess.


#8

It’s not odd. He can still do his job which is to revive. But it’s not toxic anymore. Toxic is a keyword that comes up over and over in what the devs want for the future. They don’t want the game to be toxic. Reviving hunters at full health with no strike is extremely toxic, it basically just wasted the monster’s time and health for nothing.


#9

But that is like saying losing is toxic.
Isn’t pouncing the last hunter toxic too?
Where is the line drawn?

I think the change should have been somewhere else, but I have no suggestion as to where.
But the idea of being punished for doing something correctly baffles me.


#10

[quote=“LordDerp, post:2, topic:89367, full:true”]
I believe the devs have said somewhere that they might change up lazarus’ cloak as well. But don’t quote me on that
[/quote]They certainly have said that Laz’s cloak may very well hit the chopping block depending on how things turn out. Though, given the number of hard counters the cloak has now, it may end up on the chopping block for a very different reason.

From the footage I’ve seen Laz’s biggest weakness is now the fact that incapped Hunters die too quickly for him to be able to Revivify them. From what I’ve seen the incap state needs further alterations so that Laz can actually be played to his gimmick effectively.


#11

Think of “toxic” as another word for unbalanced and unfun. If a game is balanced, then even if you lose you feel like you had a chance and made some progress. Toxic is when it’s unbalanced, and you feel like you are disadvantaged and put down.

I don’t understand how you think there is any punishment involved. Laz can revive from the dead with a strike. This is him doing his job “correctly” as you say. If he didn’t do this, then the hunter would need to wait for the drop ship timer, waste time, and come in with a strike. There is 0 punishment. Same outcome, except that Laz’s revive saves a lot of time.

It’s a very good direction the devs are going. And yes I agree that pouncing the last Hunter is extremely toxic, I am great with my jukes and whenever that happens to me i get VERY salty. Basically the meta is down 3 hunters and pounce the fourth. That’s bullshit. The game is about 4 hunters, yet you only need to incap 3 and the 4th becomes irrelevant from the auto-aim sneak pounce. I hope the devs fix that.


#12

There is a little bit of tuning I think the devs need to make on incapped hunters dying too quickly overall, and this will help Laz feel a bit more useful. Body camping hasn’t been resolved to the degree I had hoped it would be as a game mechanic.

I played a little Laz and my first impressions are that he himself hasn’t changed a lot. The perks system will, when maxed out, I think help him to be a little bit more survivable… but the delay on the revivifier after use is brutal, and as others have said given he relies on his cloak there’s an awful lot now that nullifies that.

If they were to get rid of cloak it would be because it was too toxic still for monsters, but with the revivifier on such a long cooldown, and the monster still getting the benefits of downing someone on the dome time (and the dropship? I need to pay more attention to that) I don’t know how the cloak can be a problem to monsters right now. I’d be interested to see what an alternative is, but whatever it is it’d need to let Laz approach and/or extract himself reliably for him to be even remotely useful.

I’ll play some more of him when I can to give some more impressions, but right now my gut feeling is that he’s still a (too) risky medic that, if viable, is only so because of his heal burst being improved and passive regen going in… two things that still don’t thematically fit with him as a character.


#13

Personally I’d love it if they don’t remove the stealth, it works wonders with the lazarus device and gives Laz a unique trait. Besides it’s not like he’s got much heals aside from the healing field, so a bit of survivability is welcome imo.


#14

If they were to remove cloak then I feel the only reasonable thing they can give him is an out-and-out invulnerability for a short period. It’d be nothing compared to cloak in terms of escaping from a monster to safety, or getting to a body without the monster seeing you, but at least it would allow you to run to safety, to a nest of mines, sentries, whatever. There’d be knock on effects as to how well the revivifier would need to work though… shorter cast time, maybe larger range, possibly even a refactor on how often heal burst can be used and how powerful that is.

All in all I’d love to see them make cloak work, I feel that now that it’s unique they should allow for cloak to extinguish flames after a second or two. Laz is just incredibly squishy, and his need (especially in Stage 2’s balance) to get in to the thick of the battle means he needs all the help he can get on that front.

Laz used to just about do ok because in general a good team never needed Laz to do anything but be a present threat to the monsters plans. He was ok because he never needed to get close enough to revive and thust to get damaged. That’s all changed now and I don’t feel he quite has enough protection against monsters that know the tricks of the trade.


#15

so this is what ive seen from nerfs and buffs of laz.

nerfs

because dome timer reduces by 3.5 minutes when a hunter goes down,this punishes lazzarus and his team pretty badly considering his main utility is to revive/revify.

reviving a dead body comes with a strike.

with addition to shield burst and tech sargent hank,shield gives you away when cloaked, which is a huge bummer and extremely counter intuitive.

buffs

his healing field apparently heals more then before from what ive played (500).

reviving a dead body comes back with full health(with a strike).

overall, yes i think lazzarus need desperately a buff to his cloaking or a rework entirely.


#16

Hmm, I feel as perhaps laz may need a change here or there but overall because the state of the game where there is a mashup of experienced player with inexperienced players its hard to really determine at least at this time some of the more hidden disadvantages or rather nerfs and buffs that have risen with the coming of Stage 2.

From my own experience as a player who is more or less experienced playing the game before the update and now afterwards on both consoles and now PC, I feel as if laz does his job particularly and annoyingly well if only in certain matchups.

The strikes nerf to reviving made laz as someone said before less “toxic/annoying” to deal with when playing against him as a monster, again it’s hard to see since with the more chaotic state the game is in right now stats are volatile and so at least for now I would say sit and wait at least on laz since he still fulfils his job of keeping the team alive and in play without too much down time.


#17

They need to make the cloak reliable.

Lengthen the CD but make it so that flames/acid/aftershock/jetpacking/shields don’t reveal him.


#18

Same. They need to give downed hunters a passive DR


#19

This would probably go a long way.
Give them some sort of visual indicator that they’re running on an emergency shield (so it doesn’t seem completely unrealistic how many thrown rocks it takes to kill someone lying on the ground) and increase their damage resistance by a fairly good margin.


#20

Yes I agree with you, Laz’s kit is counter productive: he wants his team mates dead so he can revive them, BUT he doesn’t want them VERY dead. :stuck_out_tongue:
So no doubt that he needs a rework, and I think I read this somewhere were TRS said they will change Laz for this update but will look into further changes for the future. So Laz’z current situation is a placeholder.
Another thing that I want to bring up is that the increased CD on the glove. I was put into some awkward situations where the monster is fleeing and there is an incapped hunter in front of me who I can’t revive because my glove is on CD and I don’t want to pick him up with E so he doesn’t get a strike. So even when the plan goes as intended (The monster flees because body camping would lose him a lot of health) Laz still can’t function due to long CD.
I suggest to make the revive instantly for the mean time. I think the long CD will balance it out; if Laz has a limit to how many hunters he can revive without strikes then it should be an easy task to do.