Does Kraken need a rework?


#1

In the last title update I think it was, kraken’s damage output and abilities in general received a substantial buff, however I don’t think damage output was the crucial weakness of Kraken before. I never really liked playing kraken in hunt mainly because I could never get away from hunters once they found me. With the release of elder kraken the issue has yet again come to my attention. Kraken is simply too slow in my opinion. I have heard as well that kraken is OP at times, which ability wise he is, but in hunt if he gets caught stage one, which with maggie he will be, he often cannot get enough distance between the hunters. In my experience against kraken if we have a maggie on the team kraken is usually domed and killed in under five minutes in hunt, but if its not maggie and kraken gets to stage two kraken is ridiculous. My suggestion is that glide give a short, but substantial increase to speed while in the air so that kraken can get distance and consistently be able to out daisy, as well as return abilities to where they were before, or at least close to it.


#2

Kraken already gets this. While flying around kraken moves at about 9-10 meters per second vs 7.5 normal. His air burrs also cover 15+ meters per use, which he gains at 1 every 6 seconds out of combat. For comparison Goliath can move about 30ish on flat ground depending on angle (this can be more with elevation on his favor, or a lot less with it against him , but he gets one every 11 seconds, nearly half, and runs at the mentioned 7.5

The reality is that over a map, Kraken isn’t that slow, and can get around as fast as the fastest monster. On quite a few maps he can actually get around some paths faster because he’s not having to deal with terrain in the way.

The PROBLEM is that krakens traversal keeps him in LOS of the hunters- instead of breaking it constantly, so they get a lot of opportunity to do chip damage as they have him post dome. And since he’s up in the sky, in los, he’s not exactly bein stealthy and it’s very easy to observe/see/intercept him around the map.

One other thing that skews the results a bit is that monsters benefit from move speed differently. Krakens flight speed may be faster than the base speeds of others, but it’s not augmented by move speed like the others either.

Imo, for now, I see this draw back as a necessity for kraken. It’s a price be pays for his combat superiority. Defeating kraken is a damage race, and the hunters need this opportunity to get in damage. Without it kraken would be impossible to take down. It’s a huge reason kraken was given more hp/armor- it’s not because he needs it for combat. It’s because they’re expecting you to do this damage on the chase. If you don’t, you will lose. If you do, you might win.


#3

I would argue though that goliath has abilities as well that it can use to traverse and that even greater distance can be covered when jumping from ledges, while kraken is just flat with the added downside of leaving a trail straight to him while goliath does not while in the air. Kraken has always been the marathon runner of the monsters, but that presents an interesting dilemma. If kraken gets spotted then feeding becomes an issue because it cant get enough distance quick enough often that feeding becomes more challenging than with any other monster. Kraken on its own is just fine assuming the player can sneak well and has a good feeding route, but when Maggie comes into play it is a whole different story. Kraken can easily be found stage one with daisy’s tracking and once found it is very difficult to get away and stage up.

As for beating kraken I think the devs have done a good job of letting the trappers be able to bring him to the ground, so in any engagement that should be the trapper’s only focus.

As for the chip damage outside the dome I feel that it leads to an un-fun mechanic for the monster where the monster cannot retreat ever and must constantly engage. The slowness of kraken was originally meant to be a counter for him being difficult to hit and able to attack from a distance, but I do not really it works in the current state of the game.


#4

Simple facts:-

OG kraken=Can mitigate almost all damage from Assault while flying,can do the most burst damage while mitigating it,has the best abilities in the game as monster=OP!

Elder kraken=very very slow ridiculously slow it’s like they purposely made him weak because OG is too OP,EK is fun against pubs but as soon as you play silver division hunters you will lose almost every game!


#5

My take on Kraken is to remove his flying ability. Flying gives him the edge of body camping without a lot of punishment, and an easy focus on medic/other hunters. His abilities might need buffs, but a HP increase should balance him.

Option 2 is to limit meleeing air attacks that recharge once he’s landed to promote more up-front confrontation with the hunters.


#6

id like to see how his snowballs would do with a range limit. That way to camp a body he actually had to be -by- the body, not just anywhere in los.


#7

Totally agree with sidewayssgts, it seems slow moving in the air because kraken can be seen easily in the air.
Its hard to break line of sight in some map for a flying monster, example distillery where u try to escape from the cave towards the relay ( down hill ), medlab, wraith trap just to mention a few.


#8

But he could still mitigate damage that way. If the range was set to 25m I could see it work since marks lightning gun has around that range, but then comes positioning and how good the mark can stay targeted on the monster without breaking beam.

It could also dick over Laz, the best anti-Kraken class there is. Closer range means a Laz can’t escape and being that it’s near-to-impossible to with without a shield support as any other medic, Kraken would just be further OPped.


#9

But it’s how well the Kraken can mitigate damage. You can have LOS and your assault is Lennox and she can only use her AA cannon as the main damage dealer, and that isn’t very accurate.


@Sidewaysgts what if instead of limiting range, the air melees slow down over distance or the range reduces damage, making a benifit for the monster for fighting closer, taking more damage, doing more Hunter damage, and overall higher risks?


#10

I’m missing how kraken would be further op’ed by limiting the range on his snowballs o.O

As for the less damage over range thing- wouldn’t do much, imo. The problem and threat to me isn’t the damage. It’s that he can prevent a revive from any distance he can see you at. Lowering the damage from afar means he’ll still be able to prevent the pick up, and the threat is then that the hunter will keep bleeding out and die anyways without medic prevention. But he can still lob lightning strikes, vortexes, and up to 3 banshees in the body, all of which will eventually exceed what the medic can do. Heaven forbid it’s the medic that went down.


#11

He’s closer to a downed body, making a cloaked Laz easier to hunt down via smell. Be that Laz or supports cloak.

Reducing damage over range means a medic can revive a Hunter if the Kraken uses a lot of melees. Soon the kraken will be far away and his snowballs won’t do any damage, acting like a range limit.

He would also need ability recharge perk to keep hunters down.


#12

Which is something he can already do now anyways though. It’s not a buff to limit him to something he can already do? Forcing him to be closer just means the team would get more opportunity to deal damage and deter the body camp on the first place, or ensure that if he does secure the kill from Lazarus he’s at a minimum trading a lot of life for it.

Are we talking about having them do no damage if he’s far enough away? If so at what range are we talking about them reaching no damage by?

Again IMO the problem isn’t the damage. They could do 1 damage, and kraken could still exceed the healing from a lot of medics and secure the kill at stage 2 with appropriate point distribution. It’s simply that he can prevent hand pick ups from as far as he can see you that is to me an issue.

Not sure how much of a fan of reducing damage by range I’d be. Snowballs are already subject to damage decrease depending on the krakens accuracy. The snowballs explode with a few meters radius, and has drop off depending on how far you are from the center.

But this all goes back to what I said. Even good krakens don’t really do a lot of snowball damage from afar. They’re just using the explosion to prevent pick ups.


#13

A closer kraken will take more damage, but if he can easily take out Laz without much HP loss, putting a strike on Laz or now can camp 2 bodies at once.

If kraken is flying from afar, it is impossible to hunt a Laz.

The range would have to be lenient, so I’d say 50m. From that distance it’s simply to prevent hand pickups. Medic can still out heal, unless he has ability cool down reduction, in that case you better pray you have Hank to shield those LS.

Anyways I need to sleep now :upside_down_face:


#14

Kraken is in an odd spot because as stated he can mitigate assault damage the easiest and most consistently. I don’t think his speed is that slow with Maggie I can catch any monster stage 1, but you can’t always punish a Kraken that well at any stage with how he can mitigate. I want something done with Kraken, but more speed is something he doesn’t need.


#15

I do agree he is the slowest monster … that is his only weakness besides stasis … but he has something no other monster has … he is really powerful / can’t be juked / combo strength /level of control / ranged attack

He can use his ranged attacks to get bigger distance by forcing the hunters to back off

I think Elder needs traversal recharge buff … not normal kraken


#16

Kraken doesn’t need a rework, he needs the changes that I believe that the next TU were going to bring in making monsters more able to escape after a dome, but he also needs the damage potential removing from most of his abilities. In my opinion the removal of the individual damage potential of his abilities while reducing the cooldown on them, would turn Kraken from the highly bursty monster that it is in to one that really needs to try to use range and sustained attack on the hunters.

With lower damage but more frequent abilities the Kraken would be able to afford much less to come to ground and carry out the sneak pounce combos, but thanks to having abilities more often would be able to do more to flush hunters and with perhaps even slightly more powerful snowballs be able to keep up reliable damage and pressure on the hunters, much in the same way that I believe they’re planning on making Behemoth.

In fact Behemoth and Kraken share enough in common that I believe that they should play strategically much the same way. Bob gets his ability to sustain a fight by his higher health, damage and personal mitigation with rockwall, Kraken should do the same by being at range,

So, just to repeat myself… no… no need to rework. Give Kraken players a break when it comes to escaping from the hunters, but give hunters a break by tuning Kraken in to a less bursty but more consistently damaging monster and encourage the Kraken to stay at range in the process.


#17

I’ve never had a problem with hunters chasing me, unless it’s Daisy. I simply weave between the rockforms and sneak. Is it a problem in competitive?

But with frequent abilities it would be impossible for a downed hunter to get up. Instead of snowballing, it would be constant LS, doing damage if someone tries to hand-revive.

The only way I can see this not being a problem is if Kraken’s LS has more aim time that would lock Kraken in place and from mitigating damage (essentially punishment for camping a downed body). With longer aim times for LS someone can hand-revive, but Medic can’t out-heal.

Then some balance needs to be in place for assaults. Their primary weapon does not have enough range to damage the monster properly, and their secondary weapons are inaccurate + the Kraken mitigation.

With Behemoth, his rockwall can’t stop a good Hyde grenade, Torvald’s mortars(sometimes), Cabots railgun, Buckets sentry’s, or Hank’s orbital(sometimes). Kraken can mitigate almost all of those classes mentioned above.


#18

I think it entirely depends on what the hunters are running, my understanding is that in competitive play (or even just experienced hunter play) you’re talking about assaults and trappers that tend to run move speed and know how to make their runs to keep up the pressure.

I don’t believe that Kraken suffers quite as much as some like to make out, I feel some people fail to understand the trade off of flight and therefore how it’s meant to be used. Essentially flying lets you move in a straight line where hunters would have to weave, climb and otherwise take slower paths to follow you, so flying has to be slower than other traversal methods by some amount because otherwise flying would just take the piss unless it was used in a ridiculous way.

That said, I think plenty of people use flying in a ridiculous way and wonder why hunters can keep up the pressure when they’re basically escaping in a straight line ona route where hunters don’t need to weave and climb to follow, and those people need to understand a bit better that such a situation doesn’t make the Kraken slow.

It’d be a lot harder to get a hunter down so I’d say that it’s a less problematic issue if they can then keep that hunter down, especially since the other hunters are a bit more free to try and punish the (distanced) body camping thanks to not being able to be victims of a burst combo at the drop of a hat :wink:

If they were to push Kraken to be ranged through stat changes alone then it’s possible that Kraken may need slight tweaks to stage 2 and 3 health/armour values. However I think that the ranged weaponry that assaults have shouldn’t be dimissed as to their damage potential, especially on a monster with a big face that has to face you to keep up it’s sustain.


#19

I forgot to factor in the before-down portion of a fight :sweat_smile:. With less damage and faster abilities, Slim could be OP or even Emet because of outhealing damage.

I understand, but with heavy-hitting primary weapons only gives a Kraken more of a reason to camp from afar, as seen with Elder being shown to be slightly UP(I believe people need to use him differently from OG).

I would think that to fix the problem you make Assaults secondary more accurate and/or reduce Kraken’s side-to-side mitigation. But how would this effect the other monsters by having accurate assault secondary weapons?


#20

It’s a balancing act :stuck_out_tongue:

I think this is a good thing, and from what TRS are saying is what they’re trying to push. Kraken should be ranged, if there are issues with this with regards to weapons then it’s down to changes needing to be made with Kraken to ensure it isn’t too frustrating to fight a monster that is at range.

Quite, I don’t think you can mess with the weapons at all, it affects too many other fights.