Do you think there will be done anything to make hunters like Bucket and Laz more viable in high level tourneys?


#1

This isn’t supposed to be a debate about who’s OP and who’s UP. It’s more about what changes would be required to make a character like Bucket viable and if such changes will ever be implemented.

I know I’m not the only one who think it’s a shame that we have some very interesting and nicely designed characters who just doesn’t seem that viable the better people get at this game. I’m a dedicated Laz player and my team and I have taken down ESL Krakens and Goliaths but Laz needs a very specific kind of strong defensive setup to be even remotely viable, which means that almost nobody plays him. Bucket would almost need a complete replacement of his UAV and a rocket launcher overhaul to be anywhere near Hank or Sunny.

Has Turtle Rock addressed this issue? Do you think characters like Bucket, Laz or Cabot will ever see some kind of tweaking? Would you even want them to?


#2

Bucket is being picket 5% of the time, according to the telemetry.
But hey, he got a 50-50 win ratio so he is fine.

As for Lazarus, he is actually tricky to balance because he completely destroy monsters that don’t think, while he is instantly stopped by anyone that do, so the problem is to find a way to make him better against better monsters without affecting his strenght against average monsters.


#3

You know why it’s hard to balance? Because he takes away strikes, and that’s POWERFUL.

I don’t know why the devs didnt say, “Hey, actually being able to raise someone from the dead is actually pretty strong on its own!” and give Laz more healing ability, retain the strikes, and leave it at that. If its any other medic and a hunter is downed, they’re waiting on the ship for a couple minutes–but Laz can bring them back.

The problem is, Laz’s healing sucks, and if his healing gets too good, then his rez ability gets to be too powerful of a tool in combination with decent healing.


#4

So do you think the devs are going to just let him stay where he is? Do you think it’s possible to let his healing capabilities stay where they are and instead maybe tweak his cloak in some form?


#5

I feel like a simply solution to make Bucket more viable would be to increase the fire rate and accuracy of the sentries, but give them a reload time so they aren’t completely overpowered. This way his damage is more bursty rather than slowly draining through armour.


#6

I remember someone suggested that Bucket’s turrets keep the same detection range as now but have a longer range for losing the target. It would be a good change to test and see if it makes it more viable. As for the UAV I think being able to set waypoints in UAV would be useful.


#7

The UAV seemed poorly designed. Having bucket lag behind the rest of the team just to use it seems counter productive.


#8

Agreed. Especially when considering the duration. It would have fitted better with a trapper, while Bucket ought to have had some sort of defensive/protective measure - maybe a robotic arm that can pull hunters out of a sticky situation.


#9

I feel like this sort of character will never be on the same level as other characters like caira or hank simply because they are offensive and not defensive. when you break down a hunters objectives vs the monster’s objective, defense is more important for a hunter, while offense is more important for a monster.


#10

The problem with them being picked less in high level play isn’t just their own weaknesses but the strength of the other options. Caira is just so good. Hank/Sunny would still be way better than a buffed Bucket imho.

They could tweak Buckets turrets, maybe make them do a bit more damage but fire a bit slower or something. Laz, he is just hard to tweak without making him too good.


#11

I admit, I might not be the most experienced about offensive vs defensive play, but what I have observed so far, is that a lot of hunter players don’t really get the concept of health trading at all. An addtional strike on a hunter can be acceptable if you just do enough health damage in return imo. But a lot of people see a strike like a death sentence. While this might be the case for 2 strikes on 1 hunter, I don’t consider 1 strike as critical when in return the monster lost a lot of health.

The “every strike is bad”-mentality seems to me the number 1 reason why people rather don’t pick cabot or bucket (maybe some other reasons for bucket as well) and the number 1 reason, why people suck as Lazarus. Most Lazarus (Lazari?) I have played with go in for the rez either immediatly (very bad play during a body camp) or like 10s before the decay (still bad play during body camp) because a strike is not an option for them, no matter how much damage was dealt in return and then there goes the second strike on Laz and only if Support is still alive and cloaks away the hunters didn’t loose instantly. Again what many don’t understand is, that with Laz 2 strikes on 1 hunter are not as critical as with any other medic. While Val, Caira and Slim have a hard time preventing their teammates to get a 2 min timeout, Laz has the possibility to shorten it to 40 s. Now even if all things considered Laz might be the worst choice as medic but still I haven’t seen many games lost with Lazarus where I could not point out the critical mistake any of the hunters made. In short: Most people (me included) aren’t playing Lazarus as good as other medics and I don’t think its about Lazarus but how people play him.

Now to Bucket and Cabot: While I do think all of the UAV, the GRL and the sentry guns really need some work here and there to be truly effective, Cabot, which I probably played the most of all characters, can be as useful as Hank and Sunny. If a Monster at Stage 1 gets domed with full armor and only runs around, a shield projektor is useless, a jetpack booster might help get the assault in position, but at the cost of the supports dps. But where Hank and Sunny helped the team do maybe a bar of health if any health at all, Cabots damage amplifier helps doing a lot more in the short times that the monster recieves damage. Not only that but in case of an infinity loop in the dome the railgun can keep on the pressure and prevent mid-dome feeding as well as on the run feeding once the dome is down to do even more health damage. At stage 2 you will recieve more strikes compared to sunny and hank, but also do more damage. Also Cabots Railgun can be used to free hunters from pounce attacks out of los. At stage 3 (if 1 side has not been eliminated yet) the Railgun shines while Cabot is able to attack the relay from different points outside the monsters los through walls.
The only real issue I see with Cabot right now in the meta is that monsters barely try to sneak and hide, but just run as fast as possible. I think this is due to the inconsistency of carrion birds but anyway the dust tag is more useful against sneaky monsters.

Well that was much more than I intended, but thats just what I needed to say about offensive vs defensive hunter play. Keep in mind thats just my opinion that I formed from mostly pug playing and tournament stream watching and I’m open for counter arguments :wink:


#12

We can talk ourselves in circles but at this point I don’t think we’re going to see much other than minor number tweaks; TRS has limited manpower and can’t really afford to go back and make significant gameplay changes to old hunters.

That being said…

I’ve always felt that Laz would be better balanced if he only remove strikes when revivifying a downed hunter (aka, ressing from the dead would bring you back with a strike), with the trade off being a faster and/or longer ranged healing burst. that would give him much needed consistency in his healing while making the whole body camping thing less of an issue.


#13

I could give you a more detailed answer, but i have to keep it short cause im at work. When i say defense vs offense i dont mean defense as in the ability to keep yourself alive. Like you said, a single strike isnt the end of the world. When i say defense, i mean the ability to keep your medic alive. A dead medic is a guarantee that all other hunters will fall like dominoes. Bucket and Cabot cant keep a medic alive. And caira has the best self heal thus is the best one at keeping herself alive. Its because of this that defense > offense for hunters.


#14

Good post. I might experiment with a little more Cabot at some point after reading that. Agree with your points concerning Laz. I also think Laz players underestimate the value of staying outside domes.


#15

Lol, sadly, that’s how most of the time they decide if they want to change a character or not.


#16

We could just turn Bucket into prenerf Cabot, buffing his rockets damage by this much
http://cdn.cutestpaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/l-I-love-you-this-much.jpg

and then increasing his UAV movement and reducing its battery life so he doesn’t lag behind so much.

They made him a damage dealer support. Then lets make him a damage dealer support!

Laz is tricky to play around with, similar to the wraith. As different skilled players deal with each in polarizing manners.


#17

For “competitive” Laz, here are a few ideas:

  1. What would happen if, when the Dome was up and the Trapper is in an
    incap state, it didn’t drop until the timer ran out or the Trapper
    died as long as Lazarus was still alive?
  2. What if Lazarus’ cloak allowed him to phase out of the dome as
    long as it was active to increase survivability?
  3. What if the Revivifier instantly recharged the class ability of the
    Hunter who was brought back, allowing the Trapper to Dome again?
  4. What if his healing burst healed more or the cooldown was dropped
    further?

Would any of this make him more competative or just overpowered?


#18

Honestly my medic plays laz and I’ve seen him just juke monsters for days and one of the only ways he gets taken out is when they pounce but we shoot him off and he just keeps on juking, he’ll we’ve told him to bait the monster until the dome recharges after one dropped once. My point in this story is that if you give him any more self healing he will be harder to kill than the fucking monster is


#19

What about for the Monsters that just down your Trapper and scamper off to get free evolves? That don’t even bother with the “mind games” and body camping until they’re at full strength then just reck the whole team by spreading heavy AOE damage?


#20

Also please never ever ever ever put strikes on people after they are rezurected by Lazarus because he will be so bad it’s unreal if they do that to him
I know you said give him some healing but lazs healing is right where it needs to be if you wanna buff anything make that timer longer so that monsters learn to stop camping bodies for the entire game we win already when that happens make keeping up with laz a skill and make people playing him require the skill of juking a monster
I play with an amazing laz and I’ve got everything I needed to figure out about him figured out I don’t even need to camp the body because I know when he’s going in for a revive