Development Feedback: Balance Bros and Brandon

It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.

Your feelings on the matter are noted. If you want this feedback thread to remain open and substantive, I suggest that you not berate the devs. I understand you are passionate about this, but let’s keep it civil.

I’d insert a meme or something here, but I’m on mobile and if I try to get up, the pack of eels in my waterbed will tear my legs to shit again.

7 Likes

Why is Hyde getting nerfed…?

Wait, so, you are buffing wraith? Didn’t you guys just nerf her recently and probably 1 or 2 patches before that? You guys seem to be having a bit of a problem on where you want certain monsters to be. I fully expect to come into a thread like this a week or two from now and see about 30 of those down fingers on wraith, people hate her too much for you to ever let her be even remotely good, seems like a slight waste of time.

Look forward to see what kind of changes you do to bring about these buffs and nerfs, especially that premade nerf.

The point of the previous nerfs were not to primarily to make her weaker, but to make her less toxic for new players. More permanent solutions probably took more time to develop.

Because he’s the bomb, yo.

1 Like

First off, thanks for the elaborate response!

I know in my posts I’m mostly just expressing my point of view like I am arguing in court. I certainly could be more like “I feel like / Wouldn’t it be good” instead of “IMO this is wrong, this is right”. I am also aware that this “tone” probably is the reason why you rarely respond to anything I say. But I think you are smart enough to look beyond the tone and evaluate the arguments I make. Just give them a thought, is all what I ask.

Now I want to respond to a few things you said:


Lazarus

I honestly thought that you made the dropship timer start on incap accidentially, I thought it was meant to start on death.
IMO the main problem was that people forgot to press B in time to catch the dropship. Another problem certainly was that the incapped players gambled and hoped for a pickup instead of just calling the dropship. You addressed both and the second one hurt Lazarus pretty hard. Lazarus’ strength was the early game and you hurt him right there.
I am not playing with Lazarus often so I can’t really judge on that. But I can understand that playing against him can be frustrating and giving out a free strike on the first down seems worth a try. Once the monster is Stage 2, the dropship timer will at least be 30 seconds, so from that point onwards he should be as viable as before.


Grounder

I’m still convinced that you are making a huge mistake.

Although the OP of my thread Remove Grounder perk is a bit of a rant and therefore has a strong tone about it, it received a substantial amount of likes. If I would have worded it nicer, I am sure even more people would heart it.

As this is a very important topic, I will explain each argument against it and will try to counter each argument for it.

Debuff perks

IMO perks are for buffing your character, not for screwing with the mechanics of another player.
You tried to mess with the visuals of a monster by giving Slim a Spore Cloud. This feature was heavily critized and is now nerfed into irrelevance.
You tried to mess with the jetpack of the hunters by giving Gorgon’s WebSnare a jetpack-slowing effect. It was too effective on newbies and you tuned it down a lot.
While these two abilities were debuffing other players (and rightuflly nerfed), they weren’t as problematic as debuff perks are.

  • Only two characters have the ability instead of possibly everyone running a perk
  • You know what to expect when facing Slim or Gorgon. You won’t know which perk the monster selected
  • You could avoid being hit by the abilities to some extends. You can’t avoid being hit by melees from Goliath, Kraken, Wraith or Gorgon
  • If you were affected by the abilities, you had clear visuals that would show that the effect is in place. There are no visuals for being affected by the Grounder perk

All these things greatly aggravate the problem of debuffs. Melee attacks are spammable. Image players in CounterStrike having unlimited flashbangs instead of just two. Taking away vision or control of characters. if implemented at all, should be limited and used tactically, never be spammable.

“Counter” to strong jetpack

You are probably right in saying that the jetpack of Hunters can be too strong. But you can’t solve balance issues with perks. I’m gonna quote niaccurshi here one more time:

From what I see, all monsters’ biggest problem is dealing with slippery hunters. So this perk will become the go-to perk for all monsters. Perks are supposed to cater to different play styles. It isn’t intended that some perks are mandatory to succeed. Plus, you are blind-picking your monster and your perk. How are you gonna counter anything if you are going to blind-pick? You cannot know that the hunters have picked Sunny or jetpack perks. So to be sure, you have to pick Grounder every time.
If a hunter perk needs to be toned down, just tone it down instead of introducing a “counter” perk that is imbalanced itself. Please, don’t fight bullshit with bullshit.

Blind picking

I said in the previous paragraph. Either side cannot see what perks the other side has picked. Therefore, you might not realize that the monster has Grounder perk until you are incapped. Or if you don’t know all the monster perks, you might never realize what is wrong with your jetpack or even that it is your jetpack that is wrong. This will hugely affect players who don’t know every ability and perk in the game, the newbies. It confuses people when a crucial game mechanic isn’t working anymore.

You are saying that you want to rework the picking system. Okay, I can see a pick order for Ranked play. But as far as I know, no tourney showed anybody which perk the other side has. I think, having each side pick their characters, show them to everyone and then let them pick the perks, would be a good idea. You could choose playstyles against certain opponents.
However, for Quickplay a picking order would be pure overkill. But Quickplay will always have the most players, and the most unexperienced players.

“Hunters also have CC, why shouldn’t the monster have it”

First of all, you cannot compare hunter CC with monster CC. The monster is way faster than the hunters and hunter CC is the only way to even things out a little bit.
The monsters already have CC. Every ability works as a CC as it tumbles you for a bit or at least forces you to drain your jetpack / reposition. The monsters can already direct the hunters.
The biggest difference is that CC’ing a hunter can lead to him being incapped in seconds. If you got hit by the wrong ability at the wrong time, it all can fall appart and you get incapped. If a monster gets hit by a harpoon, it just breaks it and has plenty of other chances to try again.
You have greatly tuned down the tumbling, and for a good reason. Don’t re-introduce stun-locking again with a perk, please.

It removes the dodging

This is the most imporant reason why to remove the dodge-canceling effect of the grounder perk.
For me the most important and fun mechanic of the game is landing abilities as a monster and dodging abilities as a hunter, respectively. That’s what Evolve is all about. That’s what differentiates it from all the generic shooters.

As a hunter there are several ways to avoid being hit be the monster:

  • Roaching up and down a cliff: Was nerfed by the monsters being able to melee you off of a wall.
  • Running around pillars: Very simple, everybody can do it, but very effective as well
  • Dodging: Requires the most skill. This is the most fun way to avoid an ability for both sides.

As a monster I’m annoyed by hunters who roach up and down and run around things. But I can always respect a good dodge. This is also the most fun thing to watch. “Oh, he dodged that rock in the last second” is way more fun than “Yeah, he is running around the pillar and the monster can’t get him. It’s just painful to watch”.

As Goliath, Kraken or Wraith for example, it’s super easy to hit the hunter with a melee and then follow with a heavy hitting ability. The hunter then cannot dodge it if the Grounder perk is active. So this leaves the hunter with two options:

  • Try one of the other two avoidance tactics: Roach around things. Not very fun for both sides
  • Just sit there, tank the damage and shoot the monster. This tactic is very stupid but top tier hunter teams win against monsters just by dealing more damage than it (side note: top tier teams seem to deal too much damage. Poison / DI perks seem a little bit strong).

There is a twitch VOD that shows hunters/monsters of nDG and DD scrimming. You can hear them constantly complaining about not being able to do anything at all and how stupid it feels. Even the monster players say that it feels very stupid.

As puggims said it (00:49:10):

Now it’s like you can’t dodge in open combat so it’s like basically once he starts attacking you you’re just like “I’m just sitting here and be attacked”. Does that sound ideal? That no one dodges? Once he starts engaging you just sit there and take it, you just trade hits. That’s not what it’s supposed to be about. You’re supposed to dodge abilities."

Several of my friends said that if a monster has this perk, it greatly reduces the fun of the game. Several well-respected competitive hunter and monsters players alike (Puggims, Fresh, Dylan, Wardoom, Glithful, 12BIT, taskforecm, …) have stated that it takes the fun out of the game and is stupid.
niaccurshi, a well-respected forum member, stated that this perk is toxic:


All the arguments for the grounder perk I am reading are “give the hunters their own medicin” which is like “I’m not having fun, so you can’t have fun either” and “at least X is viable with this perk”.
If there is a balance problem, fix it by balancing not with a perk. Perks are for different playstyles not for making characters viable.


TL;DR

  • Perks cannot be used to balance things because then they would become defacto perks. Plus, because of the blind picking you can’t counter anything. Perks are supposed to cater to different play styles, not be used to counter things / fix balance
  • Dodging is the most fun mechanic in the game. Don’t remove it. No-dodging Evolve leads to stupid slaughter fests that are won by whoever does more damage

I sincerely hope you, the devs, will read this post and think very carefully about this perk. You gave it a try, IMO it doesn’t work, please try something else. :slight_smile:
If you really want to keep this perk, you can have it reduce the jetpack reload. But please don’t mess with crucial game mechanics.


The balance changes all seem to be going in the right direction. :slight_smile:

19 Likes

Hyde to be nerfed? How about nerfing damage resisting+armor regen perks on monsters? They hide under a rock 3 secs and their armor i back!!

So, monster perk “Poison claw” are getting some nerfs ? That’s good to hear.

Beside, I read some interesting suggestion that awaits to be counter argued.
What if the perk selection screen was placed AFTER the lock and unveil of what characters have been taken ?

I think this is kind of what they want, but as the devs say, they need to actually rework the matchmaking process before that can happen so that they can divide it up that way.

1 Like

I think the best way moving forward would be, to make his cloak immune to effects of DOT (Poison, Fire) and Shields. Shields in particular should become invisible as well, playing as Support and shielding yourself while Laz goes to revive the trapper reveals Laz, and that’s really dumb.

Seeing this, there should definetly be way more incentive to go into ranked mode. Laz is not that strong, people just pubstomp. Also, to reduce the winrates of parties, I think you should make a trade-off between basic Movementspeed (buff) and Jetpack recharge (nerf).

I think I may state my current opinion about the dropship: 25 seconds per Evolvution is too much. The Monsters strength should come from the stage itself, not from having more time to wipe the hunters.
Emet’s beacon… I still think it should make the following: While active, the dropship timer counts down twice as fast.

Please, PLEASE tell me this will only affect people with no timing skill or accuracy whatsoever. With the new class cooldown perks you get up to 4 healburst per clip. That is 4*190 Health in less than 4 seconds. Even against Wraith his healing is more than just decent.

I am surprised there wont be any changes to the chase-comp (Val, Sunny, Griffin). It still is ridiculously strong.
It’s no secret that I want Sunnys jetpack booster to be nerfed a lot. But I also think that Val’s tranqs could use a change. What I have in mind is instead of slowing the movement speed like stasis already does, it should decrease the stamina recharge rate, and thus be a unique ability.

I agree. Not only does MG have faster moving abilities but they also have a bigger radius, making them much easier to hit. I think it should only be one of those. I can understand why the radius was increased, to make it easier to hit multiple targets at once, but I dont think that was the right way.
What I think should be done is the following: Reduce the radius of each ability back to its counterpart of Goliath, but introduce a new, bigger radius for each abilitiy. Targets inside that new radius will recieve no direct damage but set on fire.
About the fire: I think it currently is too weak and lasts too long. Most of the time you will refresh the DOT way before it runs out. Also spreading your flames is no good if the Medics AOE healing just outheals the DOT. Imo it should be somewhere around 70 DPS but only last 3 instead of 6 seconds. (Simulatanously giving more room for the passive health regen to work)
Also, the DOT really should NOT break E-Griffins harpoon.
@GentlemanSquirl

This is a nice read. I like it a lot (not the solo hunter buff stuff of course).

One thing i have a hard time with however is Laz winrates. I really can not believe that he does so well. Maybe there must be many monsters in it that are playing plain bad? Are bots included in these winrates?
In my experience Laz went from a hunter you completely ignore, to a hunter you down first, to a hunter you completely ignore. He is in a really weird place right now.

My strategy against laz picker: Completely ignore him in a dome fight, kill someone (support most of the time), camp the body for 5 seconds or go after laz. It does not matter if he cloacks or not. It does not save him and most of the time you get two strikes even on stage 1. Against no other medic this is possible. Maybe people need to pick vast amounts of CCDR to make him viable? In Legacy i had some close matches with Laz´s that healed every few seconds.

I feel like his greatest advantage is just not present. He is bad at helping his team stay alive in the beginning and this get´s worse as the monster progresses. He contributes a lot of damage however, but still feels weird to play against.

Only Torvald buffs?

image

6 Likes

YES! Do it already! Even the shield drone shouldn’t reveal.

I’m fine with JPB and the Shield Projectors should still reaveal though, because they are player controlled.

I really hope it’s a slight rework of mortars (flight path for instance), and not just finagling of radius/arm time/dmg.

Two thumbs even? Oh my.

3 Likes

Same reaction here. I already shudder in delight when I have a good Torvald Cabot on my side, if they’re buffing him it’s going to be more like a tremor of ecstasy.

1 Like

I think they were intending on making his mortars more reliable, but less damaging per burst.

Even know I’m not happy with the Hyde Nerfs I actually think he needs them :joy: <-- Actual tears :stuck_out_tongue:

Also what do you mean by Buffs to Solo? As like if a Hunter team leaves they get Better AI bots? Or does this mean better progression in the Solo mode?

if 1-4 hunters queue solo, they get boosts to certain stats.

1 Like

I think they mean buffs to hunters that are playing solo, as in not in a group. So basically if 4 hunters all end up in a lobby together after searching separately, they’ll each have buffs (to make up for their presumed lack of co-ordination?) but if hunters search while in a group together they’ll get nerfs (to punish them for their presumed co-ordination?)

1 Like

there are no nerfs in place.