Custom players and ranked hunt players have different opinions about balance - No wonder!


#1

So guys I posted it often already in other posts but I think its time that this topic get its own thread.

I have noticed that some people in this forum have a completely different opinion about balance than other players and I figured out often these people are competitive custom players with their own settings and these settings are awesome for the hunters, so no wonder that they often say hunters are fine or OP.

At this point I want to say that I think that the game is at the moment in a really good state (except Kraken) on both sides. Some hunters need a buff like Bucket but I dont want to discuss it here…but overall it feels good.

The main problem in my eyes is that some people play with the following settings:

  • No elite buffs
  • Fair weather
  • Only three maps
  • Some tournaments have a pick/ban phase. No blind-pick.

and they judge about the game/balances with these settings. But when I talk about balance its always about Hunt 2.0 and not in customs with own settings. We cant talk about balance together if some people have a complete different game/settings.

So either our balance discussions should always related to Hunt 2.0 Ranked or Ranked Hunt 2.0 should have the same settings mentioned above.

I want to point out that I really like these settings mentioned above it makes it more skill based and not like “Ohh Kraken Stage 2/3, got the damage buff, run!”


#2

Competitive players have a better and more qualified opinion about balance

These people are highly respected and inspirational to us … they made us enjoy the game and engage more . We are grateful to have them in our community and to have them on tournament as well

Those players are 100% better than good decent player on Hunt 2.0 .

Generally speaking … if you wasted so much time on the game with different ranked players and monsters

You would have a better opinion overall about what hurts competitive , medium or low levels on monsters or hunters

About buffs I don’t like it honestly … it’s a game changer … it shouldn’t be like that … monsters in stage 3 shouldn’t have a buff at all

I am OK with making buffs to motivate early stage 1 fight .

About weather … it’s boring to play a game that has a standard weather … I


#3

Buffs are big game changers, why would you consider them in balance talk? You can’t get a true sense of the balance if you have variables that can massively influence the outcome of a game/fight.

Same with the weather. If you’re talking about game experience, they are important factors. Solely for CHARACTER balance, they are an impediment.


#4

I’m a silver 2 and i think that the hunter from 2 patch are nerfed a lot…while the monsters continue to take buff. It’s only one my opinion?
Sorry for my bad english :frowning:


#5

Yes its a problem but in ranked hunt they are in so then we have to talk about balance with them. The devs had put them into ranked hunt, so they think the game have to be played like this. Then we have to talk about balance with this settings or we should get rid of it in ranked hunt.

Yes true but even that is not the setting in ranked hunt 2.0. In ranked hunt its sometimes rainy.

Yes its okay (except Kraken).

Yes true but with their own settings. Make ranked hunt 2.0 the same and competitive players would be the best source for balance patches.

Indeed

But in Gold there is not that much differences, cause they play in Gold as well.

Exactly my opinion. That is what I really like it competitive scene, even a stage 3 fight is fair. Sometimes in ranked hunt you get an Kraken stage 3 with damage buff. This is a joke for ranked gameplay.


#6

I think you missed the point of the original post.

This isn’t a Competitive vs Casual topic. It’s a Hunt 2.0 balance vs Custom Settings.

The discussion needs to stay on that topic, if it leans toward discrediting the opinions of a portion of the playerbase the topic will likely be closed.


#7

Right!
10chars


#8

It is about the topic

I am justifying on why they have different opinions and then I said my opinion about the rules of the game


#9

It’s not Casual vs Competitive. Read TatzyXY’s post again, he states clearly what this discussion entails.


#10

To be honest I really don’t think it’s particularly fair or correct to assume competitive players only do custom matches.

What defines “competitive”? I consider myself competitive, albeit not strictly following the definition of the term.
Not competitive as in regular tournament play and nothing but customs inbetween.
Competitive as in I’ve played in some tournaments but mostly consider myself so because I play this game a lot on a daily basis and like to think I’m really good at the characters I play the most.


Competitive Hunters play ranked Hunt 2.0 all the time as well. Do you think the commonly used argument “All we see is Kraken” originated from some guys playing Custom?
From the really good players in Silver Master to the average players in Gold Destroyer, I consider them all at a competitive level in their specialized characters no matter whether they literally play in tournaments all the time or not.

Great Monster players queuing at Gold Expert and then getting continually ROFLstomped by the same team setup in Hunt 2.0 have a valid opinion as well but just because they don’t play in tournaments doesn’t mean theirs is of the “more casual kind”.


The reason there’s such a difference on balance in the forums is because - let’s face it - there are more Bronze players out there than Silver or Gold and the game is played on 3 platforms, not 1.
What is “balance” when you’re trying to cater for all 3 platforms and all skill levels alike as a game developer?
I’ll tell you what it is. Something you’ll never achieve.

My point being is that there are so many forum members here who might surprise you as not being nearly as tryhard or competitive level as you might think they are.
You can’t accurately divide the many balance-related posts into “Custom games” and “not Custom games”. Competitive doesn’t mean 24/7 Custom games with specific settings.

I agree 100%. (though Kraken is a whole other issue right now)

This sounds silly or sarcastic at first, but it wouldn’t be so weird.
Many believe elite buffs and diceroll storms have no place in a gamemode that tries so hard to be the main “competitive” mode in Evolve.


#11

It would be interesting to test smaller maps with rainy/hazy/snowy conditions to try and balance.

Competitive teams usually play hunt 2.0…


#12

*at a competitive level, and more an idea of the state than better or qualified opinion

WTF lol?

Your “Competitive” players know what’s best for medium and low level monsters as well…? Please do go on! I wonder if they could even help me with my cold atm, since their knowledge of things they take no part in is so vast!

Yeah, screw that variation. Variation is boring. We should just stick to forced meta’s of certain comps vs certain monsters on certain maps, with scripted gameplay. That’s exciting! Waow!


Anyway back to the topic on hand, you are entirely on point with what you point out @TatzyXY. There are consistently conflicting opinions from the different camps in evolve, especially as evolve varies greatly between modes and skill levels of play. Some tournaments are even using a pick/ban phase, so you can tell the balance in those rounds won't quite be the same as blind-pick/no-bans quickplay.

However, I do think more important than *picking* which we should balance for, I think the better alternative would simply discuss *which* we're talking about and the context, and have everyone aware of that. Further discussion is the pull of ranked 2.0 towards tourny settings, which isn't a bad idea, including picks/bans etc.

That said, tournaments are always going to be a step further in purity, with specific maps etc... Yet that doesn't mean we should balance the rest of the maps and discuss their balance as well!

#13

Maps should be slightly bigger. Good hunter teams can just cut cross the map and wait till the monster comes towards them, lol.

If you look at some streams where good hunters play against good monsters , its far from balanced.

If the monster fails once his chances to win drops A LOT.


#14

This is also exacerbated by adding hunters that greatly improve hunter mobility, as well as the 25% speed perk.

The maps are a constant, specifically picked size and shape balanced for set movement speeds… Altering movement speed so greatly while maps remain constant is a flawed concept to begin with!

Considering the concept and root mechanics of this game, chase mobility should simply not be fucked with :stuck_out_tongue:

And it’s a plain old fallacy to say “Oh movement speed is fair because hunters AND monsters can take it cancelling it out”… However right off the bat, even if BOTH move faster you’re still reducing the ‘free’ time the monster can gain by completely crossing the map…

Further more, all it takes is one or two hunters (usually trapper+assault) to take movement speed, and now the monster either needs to ‘take it to compensate’ or shift the balance… And if you balance FOR movement speed, what happens to the balance of people who don’t?

Movement altering perks and abilities are a ginormous and dangerous variable to play around with in a game like evolve… And simply having it in the game right now vastly hurts any attempt to find a balance at high AND low level gameplay.


#15

Sure, maybe my title/description is not the best what I wanted to say.

I think its an fluent passage. If you play some customs, tournaments or playing that game every day than you are in my eyes an competitive player.

Honestly I need a new title for this thread. Maybe “Custom players and ranked hunt players have different opinions about balance…” but yes I would say they are competitive players as well.

True and thats the reason why I need a new title for this thread. I think this is a custom setting vs. hunt 2.0 issue. It not belongs always to competitive players, yes that is true.


#16

This is why I made the Crow post. Besides me feeling like an ass for killing the dude like that, I felt like I was doing my job too well. In the end, I reached slightly above my normal stasis time in have the usual play time. The buff makes it feel like doing that is normal, which it might be for me, but not for lower level players. It’s hard to balance everything when the skill varies. R6 does a good job with balance because they purely focus on high level play, not low level play. This can result in some characters, like Glaz, to be incredibly in low level play but overall balanced in high level.


#17

Okay, in that case my post was focused too much around literal competitive play.

If I were to compare Customs (with the settings you mention) to Hunt 2.0, I believe there’s indeed quite a strong difference.

##However
There is certainly a reason for this skewed balance. And I know this isn’t the kind of thread where sides should be taken, but erm… well. Fuck it, no more beating around the bush.
##Almost no one likes the buffs or random storms in Hunt 2.0.
And this is what it all comes down to.
Mind you, I’m not trying to speak for a majority or put words in others’ mouths, but I think it’s safe to say that people who take Hunt 2.0 very seriously (which is the point of the gamemode) don’t very much enjoy the RNG wildlife buffs that shift balance around just because the Hunters or Monster wandered into an albino Sloth or whatever.

Same goes for the occasional downpour. In Medlab or Fusion Plant? Huge advantage to Slim.

Should random weather and random wildlife buffs really be taken into any consideration when determing an individual characters’ balance?

Because that’s what it comes down to. I can sit here and type a whole lot more text because god forbid you mention it - but the elite wildlife does and has always done so, screw up balance.
Anyone willing to take a quick read through the "Evolve Anonymous" thread can tell you that.

No matter how often TRS is going to change the percentages and values around that these bonuses award you; the fact remains that you randomly got stronger in a gamemode that is trying to be considered Evolve’s main “competitive” mode. Does any kind of diceroll mechanic really even belong in Hunt 2.0?

I could say I’ll leave that up to debate but again, then we won’t get anywhere. I’m saying it right now and acknowledge that there will be a small percentage that disagrees with me: elite wildlife and random weather storms don’t belong in Hunt 2.0 because no matter how big or small a bonus they give you, you will always feel cheated should you lose that match (and lose points / drop a rank).


If or when the community reaches a point where they all agree and acknowledge this and it is removed, a huge step is taken. The kind of division you describe in this thread would no longer exist.

Quick Play is something else entirely of course, because it makes no attempt to be taken super seriously by featuring multiple gamemodes and not introducing a points-based system that determines who you play against.


#18

My personal view on the inclusion of weather and buffs has always been as follows:
Buffs should only be included if they are given static spawns. This makes them strategic and not luck based. The balance would of course shift, but in a more controlled way that’s easier to readjust.

Weather shouldn’t be included in ranked/tournies; HOWEVER since there is no ‘normal’ hunt queue atm, I’d be tempted to keep it in for now purely for entertainment and variation…But technically shouldn’t :stuck_out_tongue:


#19

Sounds good, but I fear that this’ll immediately cause too big a shift in balance that TRS can’t handle in the same patch and leave us with a somewhat broken meta for a good amount of time.

That’s not meant offensively, but if elite wildlife is given static spawns then - let’s face it - the Monster will always get the good ones first. The fact that Hunters drop down 45 seconds after the Monster has started would guarantee that the Monster has already rushed towards the damage or cooldown reduction buff.


#20

I have no problem with weather, in fact I really like it. Especially when its raining on fusion plant, makes it have that creepy feel when you’re in the wilderness! However I do believe buffs should be romoved from ranked for the pure factor of balance (No elite wildlife).