Capacity Equality (Small suggestion update)


#1

Note to devs reading: While I do think that this would a right step towards a better game balance in general and supports in particular, be aware that this would take a fair amount of programming and have a big initial impact that would need rebalance. (Like 5.0 changes) Edit: See at post #29 for more clarification on the acual coding changes that I have in mind.

So I just discovered that the 40% Capacity perk is in every way superior to the 30% reload perk regarding the following weapons and tools: Val’s Medgun, Hank’s Shieldprojector, Cabot’s Amplifier, Sunny’s Shielddrone, Sunny’s Jetpackbooster, Jack’s Repulsor and Markov’s Lightninggun.
What it does is, of course, increase the Capacity to 140%. What it does also is scale the recharge rate. It takes the same amount of time to recharge 100% without a perk as it takes to recharge 140% with the capacity perk. This means that the recharge rate is increased by 40% as compared to the 30% of the reload perk.
Now I am aware that the reload perk also decreases the reload time of other things but still, I would have expected for the higher capacity to take longer to recharge, for the recharge rate would stay the same.

A very simple suggestion is: Leave the recharge rate the same. So that it takes longer to get to the 140%.
A more complicated suggestion is: Give each weapon a recharge rate unaffected by the capacity, meaning that capacity would effectively increase the reload time too. Maybe buff the capacity back to 50% to balance it out.
Even more complicated: Allow every weapon to recharge while hold in the hand and not firing. (No reload animation). This would prevent having let’s say a Flamethrower with capacity being stuck in reload for 4.9 seconds/ 5.25 seconds (40% and 50%). Of course with a delay (1.5 seconds?) and probably taking longer to fully reload than going through the reload animation which would remain uninteruptable.

The most complicated

Edit: The monst complicated slightly simplified:
Add a virtual capacity (VC) to Shields, JPB, Amp and Repulsor. Whenever the actual Capacity (AC) is lower than the VC, the VC starts draining at a consistent rate. The weapon can not recharge until VC is lower/equal the AC. During the recharge, both AC and VC recharge the same amount. Everything else stays the same.

But I am not stopping here. There is another idea that I have in mind regarding Capacity Equality:
The weapons mentioned above have one thing in common: They can be used during reload. What they do not have in common is, that some need a set amount of time to empty, others can be emptied almost immediatly, cancelling the unload time, which is increased by capacity by the other weapons.
The unload time of the Medgun, the Lasercutter and the Lightninggun are proportional to the capacity. To some degree the Jetpackbooster is too, being the time needed to perform a Jetpackdodge.
But the shields, the Amp and the Repulsor can be emptied very quickly, meaning they start to reload almost instantly. Here is my suggestion to fix this:

The Repulsor already has this: A small capacity drain when used but not doing anything. This should be applied to each of the weapons mentioned. (I think this has been the case for the shield projector in the Alpha but was removed because of skill gap, but keep reading, I am getting somewhere).
This small capacity drain would in fact drain each weapon in a set amount of time if it does litteraly nothing. This time would increase proportinally with capacity. Now it looks like a massive skill gap, right? Yes, it does, but that was not all. This time would be the new delay before recharging. That means the following:

Edit: After looking at the unload time of the red repulsor beam, which is around 14 seconds, this does seem to high to me as a set unload time. If you let the monster waste 2 traversals and some walking into the repulsor (I believe that is more or less accurate) and lets say this takes 1 second for each traversal and 0.5 seconds for the walking until the repulsor is empty. Adding the 1 second recharge delay this results in a unload time of 3.5 seconds. Looking at this, I change the suggestion to 7 seconds, meaning that after 50% of the unload time of the red beam, the recharge delay is cancelled.
The following example was edited too:

For instance, the new shield drain would drain it in 15 seconds if applied to a hunter but without shielding damage.
This means when the full capacity is drained in 5 seconds, the Hank player would have to wait another 2.5 seconds for it to start recharging again (5 +2.5 = 7.5 = 15 * 0.5).
If the shield absorbs damage worth of 50% of its capacity, you would have to wait until 3.75 seconds have passed since activation before it recharges again.
Emptying 50% of the capacity by not absorbing damage and then instantly absorbing damage worth of 50% capacity would result in no recharge delay, since the shield was active for 7.5 seconds.

Regarding the skill gap, it would of course punish the Hanks that shield an unattacked player, but to be fair, this misbehaviour should be mildly punished, shouldnt it? Its the same with Jacks repulsor now, isn’t it? Looking at the high level play, this would result in more time when hank cant shield, it would actually be rewarding for the Monster to burst through the shield because it would increase its off-time, where as right now bursting through the shield just starts the recharge earlier, resulting in even more shields.

To make it more clear:
Right now:
Bursting down a shield -> more shields per time and lasercutter during relaod, same time of shield free hunters
Wearing a shield down slowly -> Less amount of shields per time, more punish time from the assault, same time of shield free hunters, more time for healburst to recharge
OR: focus Hank through an Orbital and Cloak
With the change:
Bursting down a shield -> Same amount of shield per time, more lasercutter, more time of shield free hunters
Wearing down a shield -> Same amount of shield per time, less time of shield free hunters, more time for healburst to recharge, same amount of assault punish time
OR: focus Hank through Orbital and Cloak

In other words: Using the Shield to protect from high burst damage would rewarded by more damage instead of more shielding per time.

Similar examples can be found for the Repulsor and the Amp. It would also bring a recharge punishment for using all boost of the Jetpack booster at once during the chase. If you want you can say it is a capacity per time usage cap.

At least from my eyes this looks more healthy to the meta which is dominated by shields right now.

Regarding Reload speed and the new recharge delay I have not yet made up my mind whether it should be affected. :smile:


How long is a "tick" in evolve exactly?
(T-MM) Hank Stat Database
[Logged]Capacity perk doesn't affect reload speed
#2

Yea, this is from a conversation @Sepiablitz and I had.

This is definitely odd as I originally assumed (when I first started the databases) that extra capacity also meant a longer full recharge time. However, due to the scaling, it makes it strictly better on various items


#3

@Sepiablitz I may not be up to date with all the numbers, data, and meta but I would have to say that I agree with you there from what I do know and btw @The_Mastermind could you give me a link to your thread with the current database of numbers?


#4

im currently in the process of updating all the reload and capacity values due to the scaling and how the reload speed perk actually works (compared to how its been assumed). also, blitzkov’s tesla mines with mastery hasnt been competely updated for the tested values i did on friday. everything should be updated either by thursday or friday though.

hank is halfway finished updating

Heres the master page that i got pinned.


#5

Thank you @The_Mastermind I’ve recently really got interested in the numbers of of the game lately


#6

Yup. Numbers are good to see what characters work a certain way and to compare each one. Like lennox has the highest burst potential out of the assault characters excluding arc mines (they have an arm time).

These numbers are also very good when being used for custom Hunter concepts too and are a good source of information when discussing if a character is balanced or not


#7

I disagree with that one.

It can be, if your Assault is, say, Torvald, who’ll just tank the Amp in a millisecond with supreme burst. But if your Assault is Hyde/Markov, who sacrifice burst for consistency, Reload is better.


#8

I’m gonna need to see some video proof or something before believing such a major claim like Capacity also increasing base reload speed.
Because I highly doubt it does, but of course feel free to prove otherwise.

Except you failed to mention these characters also carry the Sniper Rifle, Tranq Gun, Orbital Barrage, Mininuke, Dual Pistols, Satellite, Assault Rifle and Arc Mines.
These weapons are arguably a lot better off with Reload speed instead of Capacity.
Better yet, some of these weapons aren’t even affected by Capacity.

Just because some characters have 1 weapon or tool that’s best affected by Capacity, doesn’t mean their whole kit gets the most out of that perk.

Especially if, like I said unless proven otherwise, Reload Speed is the only perk actually granting more damage per second or healing per second where as Capacity actually makes the reloading take longer and thus doesn’t gain any per-second kind of buff.

So again:

…is a really bold claim to make without evidence.


These shenanigans aside, I think it’d be much better for Capacity if —

Option 1

Capacity affects more items

  • Laz’ Personal Cloak
  • Caira’s Adrenaline Field
  • Hank’s Orbital (more missiles? not sure if it already does this)
  • Cabot’s Dust Tag duration
  • Parnell’s Supersoldier duration? (probably a tad too strong)

Note that these are all “battery-based” tools, so it would mean they also take longer to fully recharge with this perk.

Option 2

Capacity affects the number of deployables
Bucket, Maggie, Griffin, Abe and Markov gain the ability to place 1 extra deployable in the map if they picked Capacity.


I wrote these options down because I think Capacity needs buffs, not nerfs. It doesn’t affect as many weapons Reload Speed does and it’s a lot more situational.

If what you say is true - regarding the same base recharge speed despite the Capacity perk - then yes, that would need to be fixed.
But from my experience, playing Hank or cabot with Capacity does mean a longer “downtime” when you’ve run all out.


#9

I am against that totally . It ruins the perk and the game . You can’t shield or boost or repulse in time

I think capacity is very reliable and needs to be down a bit to be 25% but with a higher shield rate to compensate for Hank


#10

To be clear about this: I also prefer Reload Speed on Cabot too, mostly because of the Railgun. But if you simlply look at the Amp, as explained above, it does not only recieve a 40% Max Capacity buff, but the reload time stays the same. This means that reaching the 700 base Capacity takes less time with capacity than with reload. Now of course this might be asynchronous with the reload times of assaults, thus having no benefit of the faster reload, but still you get more Amp power in the same time.

Unfortunately I can’t do this for another 2 weeks or so, but it is fairly easy to see for yourself: Play solo, pick Markov with Reload/Nothing/Capacity, empty your LG and watch the reload time by pressing “T”. You should see what I saw: With reload the time should be about 5-6 seconds, with anything else about 8. Not very close to the 10-11 seconds it should take if the recharge speed would not scale.

Wrong. Proof:

Never wrote that either. I wrote:

It does not. Play solo and see for yourself.

Not that bold considering how easy it would be to prove me wrong and how easy it is to verify.

It is more like a fix. Also I wrote:

Experience is subjective. Also, what perk do you choose when not capacity? Reload? Then of course it takes less time to recharge 100% / 100% than it takes to recharge 140% / 140% but more than it takes to recharge 100% / 140%.

I have had similar ideas but I think first capacity needs to have some more consistency, if it proves to be too weak, augmenting its effect to more tools will be an option to be considered.

I dont really see what you are saying here, can you elaborate?

Can I ask at this point why no one so far has given any feedback on the second part? I mean that is an even bigger change than fixing the reload of capacity!


#11

If the capacity does not affect the recharge time . It would ruins the perk

For instance : in fights you can shield at the beginning . But once the shield is gone and in the cooldown . You have to wait a very long time until you are able to shield the team . It pumps the hunter team at first but would not make out the monster damage

This is why I am against it . Do I think the capacity is the best viable perk ?? yes it does . For Hank - sunny - Torvalds - blitz Markov - medic gun for rogue val - Jack

I agree with you that capacity is better . But I think toon it down would be the best option IMO


#12

Without a perk the shield recharges in 10 seconds as far as I know. With capacity it takes 10 seconds for 140% and 7.1 seconds for 100%. With the change it would take 10 seconds for 100% with the possibility to invest 4 more seconds to recharge 40% extra capacity. You do not have to wait until all of your available capacity is recharged.


#13

You just cut capacity in half . And you think it’s good

Let me tell you something

This would destroy Hank completely . 14 seconds as to 10 seconds . What is the point in choosing capacity ?? If the recharge rate is the same but the time is more

This would destroy the game for Hank players . It’s hard to keep the team a live at this point with all the nerfs . And you want all that .

What do you know about balance ?? How many hours have you invested in this game ? Do you watch ESL or TGL or competitive scene ? Why Hank players use capacity . Because it’s the only viable perk for them beside reload

Do you know why sunny is picked more than Hank ? Do you notice why she has a higher win ?


#14

To have more capacity? Counter question: Whats the point of taking reload?

What do you mean by this? Hank gets 50% capacity? The capacity perk is 20%? Or do you mean that I cut out the half of the perk that increases the recharge speed?

[quote=“Lmk, post:13, topic:77296”]
What do you know about balance ?? How many hours have you invested in this game ? Do you watch ESL or TGL or competitive scene ? Why Hank players use capacity . Because it’s the only viable perk for them beside reload

Do you know why sunny is picked more than Hank ? Do you notice why she has a higher win ?
[/quote]Yes, hundreds, yes, yes, it is but reload is only picked for the orbital, yes, yes.

I can see that capacity is picked a lot on Hank. And I can see that getting strikes before stage 3 is a pain in the butt. What you dont seem to see is that Capacity perk is capacity perk + better reload perk.


#15

TLDR weren’t they talking about making perks unique to each character.
Would be really nice to this happen.


#16

The shield recharges 40% faster with the capacity perk, meaning the shield is always better with capacity than reload, because you both recharge faster and get more shield each time. Capacity should recharge at the same rate as it does with no perks, so you have to wait for your shields in order to use the extra capacity.


#17

I thought capacity didn’t effect Sunnys shield drone?


#18

@Azmi_Anuar

(Shield projector is being used for the examples)

Without perks
100 capacity
10ammo / sec recharge rate
10sec to recharge to 100ammo
10sec to full recharge

reload perk
100 capacity
13ammo / sec recharge rate
7.7sec to recharge to 100 ammo
7.7sec to full recharge

Capacity perk
140 capacity
14ammo / sec recharge rate
7.1sec to recharge to 100 ammo
10sec to full recharge

The suggested change/fix
Capacity perk
140 capacity
10ammo / sec recharge rate
10sec to recharge to 100 ammo
14sec to full recharge


The discussion is whether or not the recharge speed should scale to the modified capacity. Basically saying that it should take longer to get a full recharge if it had 140ammo than 100. I agree this is how it should work. Otherwise not only do you get +40 capacity, you also get +40recharge speed.


#19

So you mean at the current version of the game, recharge rate isn’t effected(takes longer) if you have more capacity like it logically should?


#20

If I read that correctly, yes. It would make sense for an item to take longer to fully recharge if it had a higher max. For several items you can use capacity as a better recharge perk because of how it works currently.

Edit: just saw your edit. So, yes. It “should” take 14secs to recharge to full with the capacity perk. Not 10secs. That would make sense