Bird RNG removal or improvement. Feed gauge?


#1

I thought about how to get rid of bird RNG, which is of course good for the competetive side, as RNG is BAD. Every time you hear the pro players talk, bird RNG will come up.

Instead of random chance, you have a bar similar to evolve, which acts as ‘Feed gauge’. Each time the monster feeds ‘under the sky’ bar fills itself up, let’s say the monster can feed ~7 times until it WILL spawn birds regardless. The gauge doesn’t decrease and would add a strategic layer to monster play aswell as hunter play. Both have one additional predictable element which they can capitalize on, which would be along the lines of Macman’s wildlife buff ‘public event’ concept.

Monster side would need to pick their food more carefully, but could also use the predictable bird spawn as trap for the hunters. This could of course work for the hunters, as they know first of all thast the monster WILL spawn birds, but this time the monster can also decide when this happens. More sneaking means less food, trying to drag out the empty gauge will get you caught anyways.

Extras:
Feeding in a cave, which has no los to the skybox, would not increase the ‘feed gauge’

Feeding while hunters are near should be rewarded, so it wouldn’t fill the gauge either.

Downing a hunter could decrease the bar for instance

Being in combat continually decreases the gauge at a specific speed. Feed speed could increase this speed aswell, so it could give feeding speed perk a combat advantage.

The bird-pods:
They would get a circle attached which has a fix range, lets say triple the one markov’s mine has. In this circle the pods would detect if the monster is feeding and start a timer. A pulse is sent from the center of the bird pod and when it reaches the remains of the monsters prey it WILL spawn birds.
The range can be smelled by the monster and is displayed in a very faint outline.
The monster has to choose, a quick nom near birds? or rather search more around and waste time. Another strategical layer isntead of RNG.

Overall i think this could work, as it removes the RNG element of the bird completely and replaces it with a more sophisticated system. The RNG we have now works too and maybe there can be simpler tweaks to make the bird spawn more strategic instead of random, which should be the goal here. These thoughts are just a start, feel free to add and post your opinion, would be interesting watcha think about this.

Bottom line is:
For comp side it would simply remove rng and add more strategic layers to the game.

For Casuals and solo players it could add a tool to reduce the running a bit. Hunter who don’t learn to cut off the monster, won’t get far anyways, but this would lead them into the right direction at specific points in the game, not random points.

Balance:
Since the difference between ‘solo random play’ and ‘competetive game’ is so vast, it’s unclear how difficult it really is to do any balance adjustments, so many variables, different combos, etc… Would the hunters actually get another advantage by just waiting for birds and not really hunting? Could the monster cheese this system and stay completely undetected?

So enough text, i rather let this sink in for the interested folk who want to talk Evolve a lil bit.


#2

I made a post about them in another thread I think they’re flat out ridiculous sometimes. When you get them 4 times or more at Stage 1 it’s a load of nonsense. It totally negates any skilled monster play using sneaking and juking. It’s already a big enough pain to get evolved to Stage 2 against a decent Hunter team. Do they really need more help especially random help that doesn’t require any skill from the Hunters?


#3

Yeah the thing that you could feed 10 times and spawn nothing and the other match you spawn them right on the first prey, which is complete nonsense. This can be a game decider in high level play already, in public play there is of course more leeway on both sides.


#4

It’s a good idea, but it would take away the randomness from the game, maybe just make it less often because it happens too much.


#5

I like the idea, it works well in tandem with Abe/Griff because there’s a risk there that as time goes by with them it becomes increasingly easier to get detected. So a balance must be struck on waiting for the gauge to empty versus feeding fast to avoid everything being tagged / sensored. In this scenario, to balance caves I think there should be areas that always cause birds.

As an alternative:

I think I wouldn’t mind it as it is if they put a delay on the arrival, like birds have waited for you to leave the area before landing.

Giving hunters a rough indicator where you have been recently, but not a direct pinpoint on your current location.

Would give the hunters a better chance to find you but also give the monster a chance to fake some tracks or w/e.


#6

7 times is enough for an Evolve. Right now you tend to get bird ‘rng’ after 3-4 kills.


#7

I think it should start with low probability and every meal under a clear sky increases the probability of getting birds. Once you do get the bird, the probability meter is reset. The first meal should never trigger birds.


#8

We all love birds! You know you wouldn’t live as a monster without those friends of yours.


#9

What does RNG stands for anyway?I


#10

Random number generator. It refers to when the mechanics of a game revolve around something like “20% of the time, X happens” it could happen 5 times in a row, or not at all. In this scenario, I’ve had the horrible luck in at least one game of spawning birds on EACH of my first three meals before (spawn, flee across the map, spawn again and cry, flee, spawn again…), which is very unlikely to happen, but does. Therefore, the RNG gods hates me, as they do many others.


#11

I know that they will first look at easy changes with big impact which can be adjusted with the currect code framework, before attempting any big recoding like i proposed in the OP, which takes time.
Give the monster 100% birdspawn when a certain amount of meat was consumed and as mentioned by Kruel the first meal of the match and the first meal after birds have 0% chance to spawn birds.

Simply lowering the chance wouldn’t do much, but increase the frustration because bad odds hurt even more.

Goal is to find a simple way to make birds less random and more predictable, so both monster and hunters can use it to their advantage on the same level. Right now the birds are completely roulette and can really decide matches on higher levels.


#12

I…

Really like this idea. I would, however, change some things about it.

First off, I don’t get why there has to be these ‘pod’ things. Why not just have the counter you mentioned? I really hate the bird pod thing, but the rest of this I really like.

I think the bird meter should change between stages. Like:

Stage 1: 8 animals consumed b4 birds.
Stage 2: 6 Animals consumed b4 birds.
Stage 3: 4 animals consumed b4 birds.

Lastly, the ability to kill the birds would be cool.


#13

You are giving the monster control, and that destroys the ability of hunters to do anything.

If the monster is decent you end up either having Maggie, or waiting for the first birds to spawn. If the monster can control, and manipulate bird spawning to keep that from happening you have no way to counter the monster aside from 100% pure luck that you will happen to walk in the right direction, and will be looking in the right place, at the right time, while having line of sight to the monster from beyond smell range.

The monster would have total control, with no way for the hunters to predict if they will get any hints, and the monster could easily reach stage 2 without any trouble, even potentially stage 3.

The random factor is necessary to prevent the monster from controlling the entire game, they force the monster to do something it can’t plan for, and gives hunters enough information to point them in the right direction. There is no other way to make the monster reveal itself before it is ready to fight, meaning no reason you would ever find it until it is too late to stop it from winning.


#14

I like the concept of RNG birds. But you can’t deny that their presence is creating a trend in monster play that promotes aggressive eating in favor of sneaky, careful eating. The thought is “Well, I could get birds at any moment, so why bother trying to be sneaky. Might as well rambo leaving tracks all over the place and just focus on evolving ASAP.” And I really think both strategies should be equally viable. The trade off that a monster can’t evolve as fast because it’s traveling and feeding slower when trying to be sneaky is sufficient balance as it is without adding the punishment that is RNG birds.

On a slight aside, I have to say that I really think this is just another case of trying to have your cake and eat it, too, on the part of TRS. The gameplay design focus is obviously competitive play which implies a certain level of skill. At the same time, there are all these little bits of gameplay that are much more clearly tailored toward casual play, such as the RNG birds. You just can’t have it both ways at the same time. I really think official server configs need to show up that remove the casual elements (read: RNG elements) sooner rather than later. The divide is inevitable.


#15

The good thing with RNG birds is indeed that it creates a sudden event and the monsterplayer has to adjust his route on the fly, same goes for the hunters. Quick judgement is required.

Still the glaring problem is, that one monster player gets 3 birds in a short timespan, while another monster player goes unoticed longer, for no other reason than RNG.

There needs to be at least a small barrier to prevent birds if a certain condition is met, at best without RNG. But i guess even the devs like some RNG in their game, but again problematic in a competetive environment.

Another thing which comes to mind: you could make that 4 meats, have 100% birdchance. Again monster gets reward 4 meat while the big cadaver attracts birds and thus the hunters, which have now a lead or can be led into a nasty trap by the monster. So monster has to consider, big nom + birds, or small meats. This would indirectly affect the elite 4 meats which would basically be Macman’s ‘public event’ for wildlife buffs, only you got to see birds instead of a perma marker on the hud.


#16

They definitely need to work out the birds. I quit playing monster entirely due to Hunter’s absurdly overpowered tracking and mobility, but the birds are part of that problem.

So the Hunters are faster, with debuffs that slow the monster, and X-Ray scanning with Gobi and Dust Tagging. In the very unlikely event I manage to shake the Hunters, my first meal always spawns birds instantly and I’m discovered again. Time to run. The damn bird make stealth impractical, if not impossible, to evade competent Hunters.

Running around for 12 minutes at stage 1 is boring as fuck. I’d rather sit still, let the Hunters kill me, then play Hunters and obliterate the next poor sap selected to be monster.


#17

Im sure we’ve all seen the birdless evolve, or the birds that spawn the second hunters drop. Both independent of any strategic choice by players.

I like the non-RNG feed gauge idea. Its an idea that keeps coming up and I hope TRS is at least looking into it. The basic idea is more aggressive actions by the monster the slower the gauge increases (because birds are scared away if you want an explanation). The sneakier the monster is the faster the gauge increases (its quieter down there, so birds are less scared). It makes both playstyles (and everything in between) viable by giving each a measured advantage and disadvantage.


#18

I agree with your reasoning. If everything is to be predicted everyone is going back to Maggie as well. If the monster can play carefully and avoid every single bird all match 3 out of 4 trappers would have a pissing match waiting to spot the monster by sheer luck. You need a random factor to counter players who think they can get away with it every single time. In the ‘world of Evolve’ you still need random factors to make a hunt exiting, also unknown factors that could make your game a lot more challenging.

Like the hunters have bigger wildlife to bash their heads every know and then, the monsters have birds. Both are unpredictable and really annoying if they catch you unwanted. This is just another case of, ‘deal with it.’


#19

If the answer is just “deal with it”, the response from the community will be " not playing monster".

Which is already a problem. I’ll join a match in progress, get monster, suicide, next game begins. Someone else is selected as monster… And they quit at the character select screen. Then we beat up an AI monster for a little bit and someone else joins just in time to take control of a nearly dead monster.


#20

You are combining many problems that exist and give them the same outcome based on what? Are you saying that monster players stop playing monster because of random birds? Because with that same logic this game needs to be stripped down to it’s bare core to be playable. No wildlife, no perks, no staging up, exclusion of characters. Yeah a lot of fun indeed. Might wanna make me play the game even more. Go play LoL if it’s so bad.

This game is a hunting game. It needs random factors to make it fun. I’m not a big fan of the current wildlife perks, but I don’t think they should go. They still are a viable factor for the game that makes it more fun.