Balance focus for next micro patch. No half work done


#1

I wanted to write a few points down, finished doing every character ingame. This is a copy-paste from another post, took this part out for extra attention on these flaws. @macman gave the details of the current build for the next patch, this is my feedback on the current build ‘as-is’. I feel like the focus is too small, and a lot more fixes need to be brought in. That and Ranked mode. It’s taking too long already.

  • Val
  • Lacks self healing and survive-ability (seems fixed)
  • Has no counter for healing multiple targets.
  • Medgun runs out on healing one person, and it can’t outheal focus damage on it’s own. If Val needs to go up against Caira, increase her healing on one target to make it her specialty. Where Caira heals more than one target to make up for it. This means that Val should do a little more, or the same, healing (hps) on 1 target than/as Caira.
  • Targeting a player never works the way you want it. Long range makes up for it, but the targeting should be the same as Sunny’s jetpack boost. Don’t target the closest target near the cursor, heal the target you aim at. (same goes for Hank’s shield).
  • Lazarus
  • To hard for untrained monsters to counter, to easy for good monsters to counter. He isn’t flexible enough and relies more on his team than any other medic. He needs work!
  • Glove is fine, heal is fine, only thing left are his gun and cloak. I’d vote do something about the cloak to make him more flexible to play with, without changing his core gameplay.
  • Caira
  • Pretty braindead gameplay after a while. She needs to be more prone to swap from healing grenades to flame grenades. Now it’s better to just never use the flame grenades.
  • Her flame grenades need to do more damage, or have an initial hit + damage over time. That or do more damage against armor, while keeping the rest the same.
  • Slim
  • Drone bugs out too much, needs a fix. It can be pretty unreliable.
  • Drone needs a soundeffect, or a visual pop-up that it is off the target. Slim has no time to watch if the drone is dead or not. More visual or audio feedback please <<
  • Shotgun focus/range increase to be viable against Kraken. There is no way to heal versus a Airborne Kraken without killing wildlife. Reduce his spore cloud, fine, add something else. That or make it charge up for a weaker ‘leach’ but further range. I need to hit Kraken players without being up in his face, making Slim a very bad pick versus Kraken.
  • Spore cloud bug where the cloud replaces Abe tags and other effects. Needs a fix.
  • Spore cloud also seems to make players invisible in rare situations, heard it from multiple players more than once. Also a bug that shouldn’t happen.
  • Hank
  • Mostly fine, his shield needs to have similar targeting as Sunny’s Jetpack boost. Even Sunny’s shield is more reliable to protect the right target than people stacking ontop of eachother. It’s a major guess who the shield is going to pick.
  • Bucket
  • No utility at high tier gameplay.
  • No synergy between his skills, he’s barely support, more of an extra robot damage dealer.
  • Turret setup is too slow compared to monster movement.
  • Turrets aren’t scary at all, only dangerous when three or more turrets shoot at the same time.
  • Turrets are too easy to destroy compared to setup time. Exactly the opposite to Sunny’s shield Drone.
  • UAV is only good at stage 1 and sneaky monsters, a good trapper will ignore all the bonus the UAV brings making it a half assed skill. Everything else is damage.
  • Cabot
  • Although he might seem fine, he lacks utility. His gun is nice, damage amp does enough, but dust tag could use some work. I vote shorter cooldown for dust tag and smaller radius trade-off.
  • Skills have too much of a cooldown and don’t compliment well with a lot of perks. Both Damage Amp and Dust Tag have a long cooldown making him very single minded when it comes to his gameplay. Use your setup, shoot your gun. In these moments Cabot is like Bucket. Nice addition next to assault, but not support. If cabot can make monsters easier to spot, let him make monsters easier to spot. Dust Tag is like a cherry on a cake. It’s nice, but you want to eat the cake, not the cherry alone.
  • Sunny
  • Jetpack boost had too much range, need to see it in action to have an opinion about it. Seems nice.
  • Shield drone was too stubborn, but reducing it’s health needs to have a tradeoff again. Make it charge up a little faster the first time. Good monster WILL abuse the fact that it dies faster now. Making Sunny very weak in the moments without a shield. 40% decrease on health, 20% increase on initial setup time. Keep the rest the same.
  • Maggie
  • Fix the damn dog already. Daisy AI is shit, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. She never revives when needed, she alway’s runs in circles when the monster is 100m away. She get’s stuck waay too much.
  • Give us more control over Daisy. Having stage 3 fights where Daisy runs off into a cave to point at the monster is just stupid. If maggie calls for Daisy, Daisy needs to come the fuck back. Please introduce a toggle so she stay’s close but inactive, or she can search for monsters. Simple fix really.
  • Griffin
  • Perfect, stay away from him :stuck_out_tongue:
  • Abe
  • Fine trapper, Abe is just Abe :slight_smile:
  • Crow
  • Gobi needs some rework, longer cooldown and a slightly bigger range (both wide and long) would suit most monsters fine. You can’t get away from him. Even Abe is more flexible once the tag runs off. Opposite problem to Cabot, where the cooldown is too long, and the radius is too big.
  • Markov
  • Steady damage yes, but his mines are too weak. They are the bulk of his gear, and need a small increase in damage again, or a larger radius. Markov total damage output is too low, his ‘edge’ are his mines. They need to be stronger because you can counter them pretty easy. I feel like the change was for beginners because they walk through every mine you place. Monster I play against stop walking if they run towards a minefield, and go around it.
  • Monsters see the mine ‘bubble’ too easy. It’s the same as the hunters. It could use a little more transparency to make them harder to spot for the monster. He could “sense” the field around the mine. Not see it.
  • Hyde
  • Gas grenade sucked, fixed now :smile:
  • Cooldown is long enough to trade the effect though. Give the monster a 20% movement penalty in the poison cloud. It needs to be dangerous and not as easy to get out off. I couldn’t wrap my head around the fact that the hunters are slowed by the effect. It should affect the the monster for more utility.
  • Parnell
  • The “Lazarus” of assault. Theoretically he does the most damage, but eating away armor doesn’t count. He has no utility and his problems lie with his shotgun range and the accuracy of the rockets. Accuracy stated as above, that get’s affected by movement. He isn’t what he’s supposed to be. If he cannot control the fight by utility, “HE” needs to be utility himself.
  • Super soldier, like the Lazarus Cloak, should be flexible and toggle-able. It takes exactly one vortex to fuck him up. If he can turn it off, and turn it on again (at the cost of more health) he would actually be more effective at doing his job. If Damage Amp doesn’t drain once you use it, Parnell shouldn’t have the same limitation. The health drain isn’t a risk now, it should be then.
  • Torvald
  • Master of burst damage, burst damage that is too powerful on it’s own. He is the Goliath of Assault and one mistake is enough to drag you though the dirt. And the way this game is designed, that is too strong. I said it once before. Try Cabot + Torvald… see the monster melt away. You can do this once every 30 seconds…
  • Torvald needs to have a different rotation with the same total damage output. Something like: Disk - Shotgun - reload - Shotgun - Mortar, repeat. This should relieve some stress from the monster while keeping the character intact.
  • Goliath
  • Can’t help but feel that Flame Breath and Charge are subpar to Rock Throw and Leap Smash. Changing around a few stats for better balance between the skills could make those skills more attractive to use.
  • Rock Throw and Leap smash hitzones need some serious work. Goliath hitting walls sideway’s hitting people on the other side. Standing outside of the Leap Smash zone and still getting hit, or hitting hunters with Leap Smash and they take no damage at all. Make it so it only hits the floor and does a tremor effect like Fissure. It’s either one thing or the other, not both combined by a buggy hitbox.
  • Kraken
  • Hunters need to bring this monster down to the ground more easy. If it can stay up all fight, then balance just flies off, literally. When the game first came out Kraken could not stay up in a fight all match. It needed to ‘reset’ his flight by climbing up a high point. This is not the case anymore. Also, the speed at which the hunters pull the monster down the to ground is too slow. In the air it has every advantage all other monsters don’t have: line of sight. Kraken can dominate the battlefield by controlling and seeing everything.
  • Heard something about a mine fix arm time? If so, that would make his damage output balanced again.
  • Easier pull down to the ground means that aftershock is more viable again #krakenoutofthesky
  • Wraith
  • Long range abduction glitches so much that 3 points in that skill are not worth it for the range. Also a visual effect from the Wraith player’s side when you aim ‘at’ a hunter would be nice. The abduction “cone” changing color, similar to Behemoth Tongue grab “visual”.
  • Warp blast either needs a radius decrease or a way better visual + longer explotion time. It’s the go-to skill now, and it gives Wraith players the option to hunt hunters stage 1. This cannot be, it’s clear that if a monster can pick one skill to down even the best teams, something is wrong. Even Goliath with Rock Throw, or Behemoth with Lava Bomb don’t get close to this.
  • Supernova feels really weak and only because decoy is unreliable it’s worth a pick for a stage 3 fight and even then it’s better not to use it.
  • Decoy, Supernova and Abduction all are lesser skills than warp blast atm.
  • Decoy can delay the 20 min mark timer. It shouldn’t. I honestly hate the “french” gameplay where you send in the decoy so long that the hunters just leave out of rage.
  • Behemoth
  • Could really use a fix on traversal once the roll spam is worked. That + escaping. If you do get a team with Griffin, Sunny and Val. You are not getting away, period. This cannot be. Without armor you are fucked and can easily just give up once this happens.
  • Quick use Lava bomb is unreliable and is prone to hit “anywhere” but where you aim.
  • Fissure isn’t reliable in some area’s to climb pillars and some walls. Where in some area’s it climbs even while it shouldn’t. This needs some attention, because a lot of hunters are abusing this (the dam for example).

Then there are still a lot of bugs that still need work. Getting stuck in a dropship, and then floating through the air. Lazarus bodies clipping through the map. Monsters floating through the map. Animals not spawning for longer periods of time, you turn around and the complete area is filled with them. Buffs not spawning. Cloaks and Supersoldier triggering, but not working.

I mean, this is a long list, and every month you guy’s fix a handful of them. Often focusing the wrong aspect of the problem. Then there is balance between groups of players who want to play casual and pro. Give them Ranked, it’s already too long since release and we still don’t have it yet.


#2

Well I think the reason the micropatch doesn’t address as much as people want is. Well because I think they are trying to get them out as quick as possible, and don’t want to fix 100 things and take forever. They just do a smaller amount to keep micropatches coming out fast enough for things that need fixed now. Like sunny being really really strong still.

On the Laz thing I think TRS has no idea what to do with him. His win rate is close to %50, but laz gets shut down by good monsters. I think they are taking a really long look at laz right now.


#3

My problem is that they are focusing on a few points every time. At this pace, with the new maps, monster and hunters this game will be balanced in two years, still having tons of bugs. THIS is my problem.

I feel like they are looking at average stats and they decide if it is too strong or not. I also feel like the designers aren’t even close to the skill we play at. Why is it that Torvald doesn’t get the attention he needs. He’s almost fine now, but he kinda isn’t. It’s because they are focusing on the wrong points.

If fixes like the current Warp Blast get pushed through and I see absolutely no fix or notion to fix it, I kinda become depressed about it. As a player in this game it shows that the team behind balancing doesn’t have enough manpower nor knowledge about the actual problems. I made this list in two hours, based on 400+ hours of gameplay. This game has been in development for quite some time, and has been released for quite a while. Besides making new maps and characters the only technical aspect they need to focus on is balancing. They fix 10-20 things a month, and 50% of the time those fixes need to be reworked again.

This exactly. They only seem to change stats. Not change mechanics. Lazarus cannot be changed by changing his stats because he play’s quite directly. The problem is that he can be countered too well. The only tricks he got against that are his heals, and his cloak. Healing would make him OP, the cloak not so much. Until this day I haven’t seen anything even leaning towards the option of changing him and/or his cloak. This is what bothers me.

Once the pro scene complaints start to go “viral” in Evolve everyone will pick up on this information and they playerbase will go down again. Even in our team, really relaxed guy’s, I start to notice that our patience with some bugs is getting shorter and shorter each day. If ESL can only support 50% of the characters given, that means that the other 50% needs work, fast.


#4

Well to be fair @MacMan said they are looking at ESL level play and starting to change things seeing how they play. I am with you that it is taking a long time for things. It wouldn’t be so bad if I didn’t feel like we get left in the dark most of the time. Like unless I find info on the fourms that macman posts I never hear anything about the future of this game. I think evolve twitter/facebook should be keeping people up to date. It could even maybe help keep some of the player base.

Back to Laz I don’t even know what will help laz. I guess maybe the cloak thing could help, but I have no idea. I tend to stay away from Laz talks because I have no idea what will help him without making him OP. Laz is the only character that is just as close to OP as he is to UP.


#5

When my boss tells me he’s looking at it. It means, that it’s somewhere in his to-do list. If he doesn’t tell me something, or evades the question, it means the information is not there or he isn’t going to do it. Evolve always had bad communication to the outsideworld. A few developers like MacMan actually tell us quite a lot, but hidden between a layer of 10.000+ forum posts. Sometimes you need to try something to know it.

If they cannot manage on their own, we should be able to help. If we cannot program changes into the game, we should be able to test the “test” versions of the game. For starters, I’d REALLY like to see a beta option in steam that allows us to try out new builds and comment on them. Where they might play 200 games, the PC community can play 2000 or more. Direct feedback from all directions is worth 10x as much. Like right now, I wanna try out the new Sunny changes and feel if they are too much or too little.

If we can help them make balance changes faster, I’d take that option anytime. Because implementing changes and still needing to add or remove factors. I mean, exploits or unknown tactics to abuse/counter certain hunters/monsters. You can’t know it every time. Testing takes time, implementing changes does not. We need to meet in middle ground.


#6

Pretty much all of this i agree on, specially the medic points, slim and caira are area based healers val is single point but that’s her weakest asset lol, Lazarus is good but again easily destroyed once monters know how to counter, his cloak i feel needs to special different from other cloakes its designed to hide one person not many so in his case it should be more powerful, i feel it should be on a really low cooldown, or last a long period of time with the same Cd now, but with a harsh uncloak when he does any action like 2-5s area making laz have to time everything so hes not out in the open


#7

I really like the idea of beta builds for PC that could help. I mean Diablo 3 does that before they drop a new patch, and it seems to work okay. If anything it would make the PC player base happy that there input matters to TRS. I am for that idea!


#8

It’s possible that the devs simply don’t agree with you on some or most of these points. I’d say you’re about 50/50 with them. The devs have a lot more data than you do.

There’s only so much they can micropatch and so much time to do it. You can either trust them or not, but please don’t complain that they aren’t crafting the game you want them to.


#9

Did you read the post about the build TRS showed off in the stream yesterday? It actually has a lot of what you suggested in it. Although some of what you suggest, I don’t think is a good idea.

One example I will give is Cabot. You claim he lacks utility and I can see why. But I play on a competitive team and last night we ran Cabot/Abe/Markov/Caira. We were playing against a Kraken who was good a juking around and cutting my LoS. He would also double back and sneak a bit so hitting with a tracking dart was a little tougher. Cabot called in a dust tag and then was able to cut the monster off and hit him with a dart, through the canopy 85m away.

In fights Markov has reliable damage and paired with the amp and timed correctly, Krakens melt to where they want to hide. Assault flushes out and Rail Cannon prevents them from camping.


#10

Ranked mode requires all new matchmaking infrastructure. Expect it later rather than sooner unfortunately…


#11

Being very Dutch at the moment (very direct), but they showed us many times that their focus is not the focus the game should have. Our pool of friends we play with is BIG. More than 5 guy’s being top 500, 2 or 3 of them top 200, 1 player top 100. Rest of them are all close to top 1000 world. These aren’t players to joke about. They are good, some are amazing monsters, some are amazing hunters. We all say the same things. I don’t even need to say it.

It’s in their full right to not implement these points. But I’ll keep screaming the focus points until they do fix them. I’m simply throwing them out, out into the world so others see and can agree on these points. Even add to them, or call some of them out for bullshit. I’m just one guy with too much time on my hands, I don’t know everything, but my experience makes my feedback a lot more trustworthy and reliable.

In the end, I wanna see this game as good as it is.

Yes they do. They show us some of those stats and tbh… average data only is reliable for singleplayer games against AI. You need to be able to filter out spike stats from players who are able to abuse the game. ESL Kraken right now, the way they play that monster is a great example of that.

You didn’t say why the example wasn’t good. How is it that a dust tag on shorter cooldown but lower radius is bad? It makes it a skill shot, now I tag monsters sometimes and wonder how the heck I still got them. More dust tags mean for better supportive capabilities. And my team doesn’t play competitive simply because we our team isn’t steady enough. We still play very solid and defeat some monsters out there that don’t lose to anyone (they say :stuck_out_tongue: ).

This I know, it doesn’t make it right in any way though. It should have been in already. Two months later and still nothing. I have friends who do gamedesign and even they said that with a team of 4-6 programmers you can make a good system in a matter of weeks. It’s not like they need to rebuild the game for it.


#12

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t. They have micropatches where they can make balance changes, and title updates where they can change the code but take longer. The ranked mode will come when it is done.

The leaderboards mean nothing but time played in public matches with a subpar match making system. I’m in the 500s for every monster and several hunters. I’m also only really good with the Wraith and maybe Crow.

They can - much of the stats are for level 40 only games with no bots. If they need tournament level stats, there are streams, or probably people on the forums that can help them. Also, they are very much aware about Kraken.

The problem is Microsoft and Sony, not TRS. I’m sure they could hotfix it into the PC version very soon; they won’t, because that would piss off 80% of the player base and the consoles have a long certification process.


#13

You’re absolutely right! I forgot that part :blush:

You say he is a nice addition next to assault, that is correct, he supports Assault in the same way Hank supports the team defensively. Now we see what happens when the pendulum swings to far in one direction. Pre-nerf Cabot was doing more damage than Assaults. The same could happen with the dust tag if it becomes too spammable. It’s not Cabots job to track and then keep tabs on the monster (technically it’s everyone’s but I’m talking main roles here) that falls on the Trapper and dust tagging when used certain ways helps you get to cut off points quicker without having to rely on LoS.

The way I have come to view Support is some characters are clearly better at some things than others.

Hank = Damage Absorption Shield Projector

  • Orbital used for Damage or CC

Bucket = Sustained Damage (Sentries can also be CC)

  • UAV used for tracking assistance (best at end of dome)

Cabot = Flash Damage Damage Amp

  • Dust Tagging used to help tracking

Sunny = Damage Mitigation Booster helps dodge completely (damage not taken is damage not having to be healed)

That’s how I view support. They shouldn’t be able do another classes job, just help make it a bit easier.

  • Shield drone (I see this as that last chance, if you couldn’t get out of the way in time it saves you, but only after you have been punished for not being able to juke)

#14

Dust Tag cooldown is like what? 30 seconds? 45 maybe? With a radius of 25 meter? I’m actually not quite sure about that skill. The thing that bothers me is that the range is too large and the cooldown too low. Don’t forget though that, like the orbital, it takes time to land. So helping the trapper is a bit overdone maybe if the radius goes down. In any case, it’s just an idea to make him a little more flexible and supporty. Problem stay’s though that both Cabot and Bucket teams are very easy to counter. Rush to medic, burst damage medic, finish fight when medic has two strikes. The counter is damage, the quicker you can down the monster the better, but Cabot has moments in which he can only do damage. And in those moments his gun is sub-par.

Same for bucket and the time it takes to make a good setup…


#15

Bucket I agree with. In ESL, teams I have seen use Cabot use him very well. PUGS though I can believe it’s a different story. The problem is if it becomes spammable people will complain. You should have to choose when to use it

Fun fact: Did you know if you drop the dust tag and the monster goes through the area after it has already been dropped it will still tag him? Pretty cool.


#16

It’s a micro patch. That’s why few things get addressed each time.

I don’t think there’s as many issues as you posted. Val needs buff, Markov needs buff, bucket needs buff.

Slim is good where he is.

Crow is awesome where he is.

I’ve never seen slim make hunters invisible, I just think people have trouble seeing without smell.


#17

I would rather a toggle for his cloak. And whatever is unused goes back into cool down.


#18

I usually don’t do TL;DR, but I don’t think I’m gonna get through this all right now. I read through the Medic stuff though because that’s where I feel they need to focus their attention, and I agree completely. These are all the points I’ve been arguing on the forums for weeks compiled into a list. Some of the other stuff (like Bucket) is just criticisms without ideas on how to fix it, which is where you start losing me, but we’ve definitely been playing the same game for a similar amount of time and noticed the same things, some of them rather glaring issues that have existed for awhile. I’m happy with how much they are paying attention to balancing, but I dunno if I’m entirely satisfied with how they’re paying attention to it. (I just left an argument in another thread about how OP spore cloud is not.)

The Medic class has been unbalanced in the same ways since launch, even Slim doesn’t quite compete with Caira (aside from being a lot more fun to play). One of Caira’s issues is similar to Cabot before his damage nerf - she just uses the one weapon all the time to the exclusion of the other, and it’s really effective, probably too effective in comparison to other healing (putting every other Medic to shame honestly). I’ve been arguing lately that Heal Burst needs to be buffed universally as a more effective in-combat healing mechanic for Val, Laz and even Slim (who only heals like 60% of other Medics with Heal Burst, which makes me wonder exactly how much healing he is losing). Val is getting a buff to her personal healing through Heal Burst, which is a good start but doesn’t solve all her problems; it probably should heal everyone for 50% more, not just her. I hope they take a serious look at Val, Lazarus & Bucket in the near future; I don’t think they’re all that far off from being competitive, but right now they’re not, regardless of WLR.