B-b-but the telemetryyyyyy

Ok, so I’ve seen people quoting telemetry figures in almost every thread discussing balance problems like they are the definitive indicator of the state of the game’s balance. In reality this could not be further from the truth.
The telemetry data is based on all games played by the entire community, what they fail to account for is the massive variation of skill level throughout the player base.
The majority of the players are bad. That’s not an insult to the community, this is the case for all games, due to your average person being an idiot.

The telemetry says that Lazarus is the most successful medic at the moment, does that mean he’s the best? Not by a long shot, in fact he’s still very easy to counter. The problem is that bad monsters don’t know how to deal with him. They don’t think to corpse camp if they get someone down, or they focus a less important target like the support or the assault.

Similarly the telemetry says that Wraith is the monster that most often reaches Stage 3. Does this mean her survivability is too high? No, good teams can shred her super quick. Is it because she’s too fast? No. In combat she’s quick, but when actually running she is the slowest monster in the game. Bad players don’t know how to deal with Decoy, its really that simple.

If you’re new to the game and haven’t taken the time to read up on all the different characters and their abilities, this is understandable to a degree, but this simple fact cannot be ignored: Bad players are skewing the data.
And again, this is not an issue isolated to Evolve. I’ll give some examples from another game’s telemetry, DotA 2.

According the telemetry for this game, a Hero called Puck has the 5th worst win rate in the game. Does that mean she’s the 5th worst hero in the game? No. She is a Hero with a very high skill ceiling, but also a very steep learning curve. She enjoys regular success at high level play and is regularly seen in tournaments, and in fact was part of the winning team’s line up for TI4.
Conversely, another Hero called Omniknight has the highest win rate of all Heroes. Is he OP? No, due to his high exp and gold demand, it is much more difficult to field him effectively at higher level play. Conversely, at low level play bad players just can’t handle the free magic immunity he brings to the table.

I apologize if this means nothing to those of you not familiar to DotA 2, but I’m just trying to give another example that isn’t Evolve.

And don’t give me wrong, telemetry data isn’t completely irrelevant, it just needs to be taken with a pinch (or more often than not, a barrel) of salt. I certainly believe the game could benefit from character specific tutorials, far too often do you see the same things over and over from low skill players. Medics that don’t heal their team, Trappers that don’t use their tracking ability properly, or even ignore it entirely. Assaults that pop their shield the second they initiate combat. All likely problems caused by human ignorance, but still problems that can likely be solved by ensuring players are better educated.

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To an extent, you are correct in your assumptions. I do feel that the general knowledge, or rather lack of it, is due to there being no really helpful tutorials. I like the concepts of the videos and it is a good idea, but some solid tutorials that give the player a little bit of experience on things like how to heal, when to use their item like a sheild projector, or even when to pop the PS; this would, i think, give players a higher base knowledge to what they currently have.

I don’t know though. This could just be a long ramble that makes little sense so ehhhhhh…

I think you’re mistaken if you think that the telemetry is only a mass data dump of all games over a period of time. TRS has the ability to drill down in to the data to create samples.

What the overall telemetry data does show though is that it’s not good enough to say that “X needs a Buff” because while it may make the game for a statistical minority of players, it’ll go to overpower that character/monster for the majority. Tough task, I don’t envy TRS the job.

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Then I would love further clarification on this.

People throw these numbers around when they are completely contradictory to what I am seeing in game.

They can be contradictory, because your experience is an anecdote while the overall data (the larger pool, the average) is an accurate sample of everyone’s experience. You can have trouble playing as Goliath while the majority find it fine against the types of people they end up playing, it’s not contradictory it’s just different parts of the same scale of experience.

The bigger picture “WLR” is thrown around because it is important in stating where people’s experiences are on places like this forum when compared to the majority of the playerbase.

As has been said before… the forums are a place where the most dedicated and vocal find themselves. We are not an accurate sample of the wider playerbase, we’re probably a more accurate sample of the top 30% or so of the playerbase, maybe even higher. Our experiences are different to what everyone else is, and so while people choose to come on here and rudely shout about how TRS are morons that don’t know how to balance their game, there are people that are trying the game out at low levels that are just flat out dropping the game because the skill curve makes their experience the exact opposite of ours.

It helps to just take a step back and realise that balancing this game is really not as simple as it appears at first glance.

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They’re able to filter by player level, game mode, map, etc. Not yet ranks, but I think they’re working on it.

So they can filter by everything but the one statistic that might actually be indicative of player skill, and even then the player rank wouldn’t even be a good starting point, considering the bronze skill trench solo hunter players have to crawl out of, battling against the legions of terrible team mates that are all to eager to throw the game for you.
This is hardly making me optimistic.

What rank are you, anyways?

Man the misanthropy is real in this thread.

Jesus.

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We don’t know exactly what they are able to filter by or not, only that they can. It’s not helpful in the slightest to make assumptions and then use that to create a negative atmosphere because your experience doesn’t happen to align with the silent majority.

Wow kind, charming, intelligent. Likin this fella already.

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Wait, you’re complaining about them not being able to filter by a statistic that you wouldn’t even think is a good place to start?

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Well then its a good thing they dont purely use just the “telemetryyyyyy” for their decisions- They also use high end play, competitive play, and many other factors to influence their decisions in regards to balances. They actually relatively recently hired “some of our own” from the community who were known to be high-level players, and they help balance the game. Theres a lot of upcoming changes that are happening not because of “average telemetry”, but PURELY because of what theyre seeing happening on the high end. Theres been a lot of changes in the past as well, purely because of what they see on the high end. “Average” players werent butt-humping the sphincter regions of monsters with the assaults to throw off the targeting mechanics of the monsters melee system. It was high end players. It wasnt your average monster who would do a melee. wait 1 second. then do another melee- To take advantage of the heavy cool downs so they did nothing BUT heavies. It was high end players. Theyre not changing the dome mechanics because the average pubs are doming the monsters ever 45 seconds. Theyre doing it because the high end players are. “High end” play influences a lot of things for this game.

Btw:

lol.

“Most of you are idiots. But thats not an insult”.

Righto.

So, if I may inquire- What exactly was the point of this thread? Youre venting about people citing telemetry numbers? Or was there a more guided purpose?

Thanks :smile:

I believe I asked a developer not too long ago if they can differentiate their telemetry results from different tiers and it turns out they can’t.
Apparently they have no way of knowing how well certain Monsters and Hunters do in only Silver or Gold tier do, for example.

I’ll see if I can find the source.

Not yet.

Feature is incoming.

It’s not based on everyone, it’s fine tuned. They will usually give us info and say that it’s based on level 30-40, or level 40 only.

I dont know about your question and answer, but you can see this reply:

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