An idea on how find good JPB values to make Sunny's chase game balanced


#1

Even after the recent nerf I would say that Sunny’s chase game is too strong. If you look at other characters, you see that Caira also boost the chase speed of the Hunters. As far as I am aware though, that is not considered to strong but rather balanced.
So my idea is to balance Sunny around what Caira achieves.
What I mean by this is the overall added distance.
A basic Hunter runs at 5.5 meters per second and will be faster by using his jetpack.
Caira’s Accelarion field boosts the movementspeed of up to 4 Hunters by 40% for 13.5 seconds with a 60% cooldown.
This makes 4 Hunters travel a certain distance more in the same time. (My approximation is about 5%).
So to make the JPB balanced, I suggest to have it increase the overall distance by 4 times this value (in this case 20%), as it affects only 1 Hunter.

Simplified Example with non-accurate numbers:
Let’s say the AF lasts 10 seconds, comes back 50 seconds after depleted. Hunters move at 5 meters per second, the AF boost this to 7 meters per second. 4 bursts of Jetpack can be used all 15 seconds and boosts the hunter 5 meters forward, for a total of 80 meters per jetpack.

An unboosted Hunter would then travel 445 (Jetpack) + 605 (Running) = 380 meters in a minute.
An accelerated Hunter would travel 4
45 (Jetpack) + 505(Running) + 10*7(AF) = 400 meters in a minute. This is about 5% more.

So the JPB in this exampe should give a single boosted Hunter 20% more distance.
Lets take a reload time of 15 seconds, so the JPB can be used 4 times a minute. This would result in the following balancing:
445(Jetpack) + 605(Running) + 4351.3(JPB) = 458, about 20.5% more

In this simplified example I would therefore give the JPB a total usage time of 15 seconds (unload + delay + recharge), a capacity of 3 Boosts and a thrust increase of 30%.

Of course this example is far from reality, but I hope you got where I am trying to go:

Balance the distance provided by the JetpackBooster around the distance provided by the Acceleration Field.


Monsters, what are your thoughts on Sunny in her current state?
#2

To be honest I’ve never much understood the reasoning that was kept in mind during the creation of Sunny.

So many discussions could’ve been avoided if she never had the ability to both boost and defend in a fight immediately afterwards from the start.

If Hunters are boosted by Sunny (who is behind them, not in front) and use the entire booster capacity to dome the Monster, they should die. Period.
That’s how it should’ve been from the start. Her only other options of defense are the Cloak or the Shield Drone and both can’t immediately be used when she finally caught up to the rest.

There could’ve been so many more ways to create Sunny… Perhaps multiple Shield Drones but a very limited Jetpack Booster so that if she boosts the Trapper away, he better damn well make sure there’s already a Shield Drone neaby when he throws the dome.
I don’t know… something like that.


Phew. Huge derailment aside.
Forgive me, but my Tuesday-afternoon state of mind isn’t completely following.
First off, can you post the current values somewhere (like the thrust and capacity) so it’s easier to compare?

Second, to summarize for the plebs like me who didn’t bother keeping track of the exact variables since a long time ago, could you clearly state what aspects of Sunny this changes positively and what it changes negatively?
I understand the reduced thrust (I think that’s something you did?) but errr… the rest kinda blurred away instantly.


#3

I like you.

This post is absolute gold and highlights a very good way to start fixing the game. Travel speed of hunters is one of the most important variables in the game.


#4

The idea of using Caira’s AF to balance it is interesting, but I think an important caveat is to realize Sunny is a support class and Caira is a medic.

What I mean is that I feel in order to fit into the roles they are given and therefore make each character meaningful, Sunny’s JPB should fundamentally be more useful than Caira’s AF.

To be honest, I’m not sure what the exact point of Caira’s AF was meant to be. Is it more for her, or for a full team boost? How effective is it really? Her job as a medic is to heal, Sunny’s job as a support is to provide… well, support. So aiding the hunters in escape fits into that.

Of course, since it’s a jetpack boost, that essentially gets you out of the way faster than the AF ever would, so maybe my comment actually doesn’t make much sense. My apologies.

But yeah, perhaps the overall effectiveness of the JPB should be tuned more to a fight in the dome rather than the chase itself?


#5

I could be wrong, but I believe it has to do with Cabot being the T3 Support with her. He has no defensive capabilities so Caira needed something to help her survive. That tier is also very damage focused and when a team is that agro then you need to find the Monster fast in a game of Hunt or Stage 3 will be fairly difficult.


#6

The biggest problem is that the hunters can keep up with the monster without any of their abilities like the Acceleration Field or the Jetpack Booster, all it takes is one hunter running the Movement Speed perk (you’re almost guaranteed to have one hunter running movement speed) to force the monster to take a movement based perk just to stay ahead of the hunters enough to eat and evade them, once you throw the Jetpack Booster in there the hunters are faster than the monster which they should never be, at best the hunters should only be able to keep up with the monster


#7

This is somewhat difficult because I do not know all of the values, for example how far you go with a normal Jetpack boost, how fast it is, how long it lasts etc.

What I do (think to) know is this:
Jetpack Booster

  • Capacity = 70% of a normal Jetpack, increased by 10% via Mastery
  • Reload Time = 20 seconds
  • Recharge Delay = 1 second with remaining fuel, 2 seconds when empty
  • Increases Thrust by 40% (I think this means distance and speed, maybe just distance)
  • 45 meters tether range
  • Unknown speed and distance

Jetpack

  • Capacity: 100% = 4 boosts
  • Recharge rate: 7% per second
  • Recharge Delay: 1 second
  • Unknown speed and distance (100%)

Acceleration Field

  • Duration: 13.5 seconds, increased by 10% via Mastery
  • Cooldown: 60 seconds
  • Speed Boost: 40% (From 5.5 to 7.7 meters per second)

The overall intention is to balance her JPB around it’s effectiveness on the chase, and taking Caira’s more or less balanced acceleration field as comparison.
The exact values are imo not that important as long as overall they are not too strong.
More Range, Thrust and Capacity is good, Longer reload times and delays are bad.

A jetpack dodge is an (almost) instant movement thus ALWAYS more usefull than an increased movement speed. So I wouldnt worry about that too much.[quote=“Kody_Hopkins, post:4, topic:82599”]
perhaps the overall effectiveness of the JPB should be tuned more to a fight in the dome rather than the chase itself?
[/quote]If you ask me, its too strong in a fight as well, but the chase is the most essential part of the Hunt mode. If the monster can not escape the hunters because they are too fast, it will die from chip-damage evntually. First the JPB needs to be balanced for the chase. If sunny proves too weak in a dome, you can buff the drone which has no use at all in the chase.


#8

Maybe it is a good idea to ask for the real values of Jetpack and the JPB.

@LordDeath would be so kind to share with us how far a Jetpack boost goes, how fast the hunter moves while using a boost, how long it takes until the boost is over and how exactly the thrust value affects speed and distance?

Could you also approve if the recharge rate of 7% Jetpack per second with a 1 second delay is still up to date?


#9

Actually, from where I’m sitting you have this backwards.
Supports are more about amplifying the rest of the team in their roles to different degrees, they are the real flex in the composition. Shields help compensate medic for low healing, damage amps/armorreduc/turrets/orbital compensate assault for low damage, dust tagging/buckethead help trapper track the monster.
Sunny’s jetpack booster was supposed to help, I assume, still help in these aspects as well (including possibly a boost to dome for trapper), however the side effect of upgrading the teams chase potential is out of place and harder to balance.

Medics are more about healing while supporting the chase, Caira’s speed isn’t the anomaly; Caira’s speed is the inverse of vals’ tranqs. Where as tranqs let you gain on the monster by slowing him, caira’s speed helps you gain by speeding you up.

Sunny is more the anomaly adding an extra movement modifier that can be compounded by the rest.


#10

The problem with sunny is if they completely rid of her chase abilities, this will also affect her in combat potential (which is all I truly care about with sunny). So I don’t think a solution for the chase comp will ever be fixed, however with the new nerfs it is much easier to get away playing as the monster unless you’re kraken (which is a stage 1 win no matter what eyeroll but that’s a different topic.). I don’t think sunny needs anymore nerfs. I versed a gold monster yesterday and my team and I got wrecked (take note I was sunny)


#11

I mean, there’s always my suggested solution of only utilizing Sunny’s jetpack boost when the hunter is out of fuel… And then you’re even able to revert it to previous values


#12

That doesn’t mean anything. We don’t know how good the monster or you guys are.


#13

Ok, fair enough


#14

I actually like this idea a lot, however I’m not sure if this will fix the chase because whether they are full of jetpack or out of jetpack, sunny can still help chase the monster.


#15

How bout Caira gets a buff. Give people a reason to use her.


#16

Caira just got a buff. She should have about the same strenght now as when people complained about her being too strong. Her burst healing may not be as good as Val’s, but it is more consistent and higher over time. Also she can heal multiple targets.
Besides, buffing things that affect Movement is a bad idea, because Movement and Positioning is everything in this game.


#17

Yeah, you definitely have some good points there! I especially like the way you lay out Caira and Val’s opposition, though that slightly falls apart when you consider that Slim, Lazarus, Rogue Val, and EMET have 0 ability in supporting the chase. So, your theory with the medic I guess is actually only 1/3rd correct? But I see where you’re coming from.

I do think (as you and others have pointed out) that the fundamental problem does seem to be that Sunny’s methods of support differ so much from the others. But I think that’s only in function, somewhat, not in theory. Because now with Kala’s teleporters, they can be viewed as similar to Sunny’s JPB in that they aid the chase/damage mitigation. With them constantly adding characters, it’s only a matter of time before they have to put in an idea that is somewhat difficult to balance correctly.


#18

I see what you mean, and you’re right that seems to be the direction TRS went with it… But I personally disagree with it.

I would have much preferred to keep movement modifiers on medics, and support abilities on supports. It feels like the design decision they started with and ended with are from two completely different teams.

I’d have much prefered to have jetpack booster and sporecloud switched personally. Would have made much more sense to me and been more balanced imo.

I feel the original design had rules that new content seems to be breaking ^^;


#19

What if Sunny’s JPB only increased the hunter’s speed when in combat? Out of combat it would only give the hunter more fuel.

Would that help anything balance wise?


#20

It would very much reduce the chase potential. Yes, the assault(or trapper) can get boosted by sunny to go farther than they would have otherwise, but the ideal scenario would be use all their jetpack boost to reach Sunny’s max range for jetpack, and then have one jetpack boosted boost forward. After that they are out of jetpack and waiting for it to recharge as if they themselves boosted to there (also note: They are NOW guaranteed vulnerable ahead without jetpack).

Sunny will still have the potential to save people, and launch people forward in a chase, though neither as obnoxiously.